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Author Topic: Show mass for unknown items in scan window  (Read 1485 times)

Joshua

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Show mass for unknown items in scan window
« on: January 15, 2020, 05:22:01 AM »

Suggestion: could the game show the mass for unknown items on the floor in the scan window like for identified items? It seems at least that mass id is intentional so it would be nice to not have to open the description window for an unknown item just to see how much it weighs :)
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Kyzrati

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Re: Show mass for unknown items in scan window
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2020, 05:41:18 AM »

Actually I think mass should ideally be removed from unidentified items, because mass ID is stupid, no? :P

It's not really intended to be used that way, it just made sense "logically" speaking, so it's been that way since the beginning. As a player it personally doesn't bother me being there (and I'd even prefer it stay) since I don't really remember item masses myself, but it can be nice to have a general idea. I suppose for unidentified items in particular it could be converted to a non-specific value like "light/heavy" or some such, if necessary.

Wonder what other people think...
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Re: Show mass for unknown items in scan window
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2020, 11:26:35 AM »

Actually I think mass should ideally be removed from unidentified items, because mass ID is stupid, no? :P

Wonder what other people think...

Yes, mass ID is spoilery and should be removed.
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Joshua

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Re: Show mass for unknown items in scan window
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2020, 05:26:40 PM »

Actually I think mass should ideally be removed from unidentified items, because mass ID is stupid, no? :P

It's not really intended to be used that way, it just made sense "logically" speaking, so it's been that way since the beginning. As a player it personally doesn't bother me being there (and I'd even prefer it stay) since I don't really remember item masses myself, but it can be nice to have a general idea. I suppose for unidentified items in particular it could be converted to a non-specific value like "light/heavy" or some such, if necessary.

Wonder what other people think...

I personally like it - helps distinguish between AAs which are consumable and ones which are durable, for one thing, and in general gives you some idea of the category of unknown item - whether it's worth traveling across the room for. eg something 1-2 is never going to be a force field and 10+ is never going to be a heat sink, if you've had a lot of corruption losing items ids (or CRM) and you need one or the other.

It would probably be tedious if I was going for optimal play - you'd have to memorize or look up the weight of every unknown item - but I like that it gives me a general idea of what something could/couldn't be.
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Joshua

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Re: Show mass for unknown items in scan window
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2020, 05:31:28 PM »

I should add, the particular case that made me post this idea was looking at a cache of unknown items across a room and wondering if they were all the same item or not. It's fairly slow to examine all 9 via keyboard to determine if you want to cross a room.

If item ids couldn't be lost by corruption this would be less of an issue - I would say fair enough if you have to scan it or risk it or use a component analysis suite on a prototype - but because you can even lose lots of prototype ids if you're corrupted for a while I like the slight advantage having an idea of relative masses gives me.

In other silly unknown id cases: there's so few 2-slot utilities that you can identify them both even if unknown (QC and coolant network), since one is a prototype. I guess now there's launcher loaders too but I hardly ever run across those.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Show mass for unknown items in scan window
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2020, 05:36:53 PM »

It would probably be tedious if I was going for optimal play - you'd have to memorize or look up the weight of every unknown item - but I like that it gives me a general idea of what something could/couldn't be.
Yeah this is exactly the issue. It's helpful and nice if you're not trying to be optimal about it, but optimal tedium is generally removed from the game wherever possible...

I wonder how removing it might change high-level players' approach to late-game areas in particular with regard to deciding what unidentified parts to use. Good? Bad? Mixed bag?

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I should add, the particular case that made me post this idea was looking at a cache of unknown items across a room and wondering if they were all the same item or not. It's fairly slow to examine all 9 via keyboard to determine if you want to cross a room.
Interesting, not something I've ever done or even heard of anyone doing before xD

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In other silly unknown id cases: there's so few 2-slot utilities that you can identify them both even if unknown (QC and coolant network), since one is a prototype. I guess now there's launcher loaders too but I hardly ever run across those.
Less of an issue really since it's so small scale compared to mass, which is listed for all items.
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Joshua

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Re: Show mass for unknown items in scan window
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2020, 05:49:07 AM »

It would probably be tedious if I was going for optimal play - you'd have to memorize or look up the weight of every unknown item - but I like that it gives me a general idea of what something could/couldn't be.
Yeah this is exactly the issue. It's helpful and nice if you're not trying to be optimal about it, but optimal tedium is generally removed from the game wherever possible...

I wonder how removing it might change high-level players' approach to late-game areas in particular with regard to deciding what unidentified parts to use. Good? Bad? Mixed bag?

I have been thinking about the alternatives for prototype id and to me they seem to be more tedious:

1. Carry prototypes until you can scanalyze them. Easy for a flight hacking build to run a scanalyzer, though there is constraint on inventory space, but flight has less need to identify prototypes anyway and I locked myself out of 2 scanalyzers on the last factory floor I played (not flight hacking) without id'ing a single item.
2. Carry around a Component Analysis Suite and wait for it to do its thing. Better and more reliable than a scanalyzer since you are guaranteed an id in probably less time than it would take to find a scanalyzer anyway, but still kind of tedious because the base model is slow.
3. Drop everything you have of value before attaching a potentially faulty item.
4. Hack terminals for prototype ids either via MC or Zion intel. Very random, unlikely to identify any given item you carry.

What I really want to know when seeing a prototype on the floor is: is this worth equipping or carrying instead of something I already have? If you use id them you are making a gamble that it will be worth it but sometimes it destroys your existing important parts :/ (e.g. I broke a Vortex Chain Reactor by use-id, and recalibrators won't repair them). Mass id can at least give you an idea, especially if you're constrained on support and might not even be able to support an item even if it was good.

Edited to add:
Making (the first?) Insert on a Scanalyzer a guaranteed (100%) action could alleviate this somewhat.

Edited to add: a couple less tedious ways, but limited in scope:
1. RIF gives you drop id for haulers and researcher hacks (I've considered trying to fab an analyst, then try to get it assimilated by a programmer so I can use those hacks outside of R branches)
2. Datajack bots with prototype parts
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 05:59:09 AM by Joshua »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Show mass for unknown items in scan window
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2020, 07:24:37 PM »

I don't think it's as tedious as all that. I think for non-hackers it's often better to simply attach-ID and risk it, while if you do use Scanalyzers to identify things it's actually quite a high chance to succeed. The base chance per attempt is 80%! And it doesn't even scale depending on the part in question, only the level of the Scanalyzer as with all other hacks, so even without any hackware you should generally get at least one ID out of a Scanalyzer, if not more. (Remember this is different from actually getting the schematic.)

That's pretty accessible, even easier than fabricating stuff, which non-hackers can do as well.

For attach-ID: Sure you can drop things you want to protect, although that doesn't work for processors and has an associated matter cost, plus a cost of still potentially losing something else that you didn't remove (since you're certainly not removing everything). One of the goals of that system is to create risk-reward scenarios with some optional ways to circumvent it but requiring more effort on your part. The effort in this case isn't really tedium, though.

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(e.g. I broke a Vortex Chain Reactor by use-id, and recalibrators won't repair them).
Well something that valuable probably should've been removed first xD

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Mass id can at least give you an idea, especially if you're constrained on support and might not even be able to support an item even if it was good.
Of course, it could also have any other number of qualities that simply wouldn't work with your build, either--that just potentially eliminates one of many.

I think the talk of ID'ing things is sorta tangential to the idea of whether mass is shown or not, because it leads to meta gaming that suggests you should use a wiki for optimal play, even more so once you're experienced, which is kinda the opposite of what Cogmind wants to be (even though some players do enjoy using outside info to make important decisions, if it's avoidable in a case like this why not remove it?).
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Joshua

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Re: Show mass for unknown items in scan window
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2020, 03:52:40 AM »

I don't think it's as tedious as all that. I think for non-hackers it's often better to simply attach-ID and risk it, while if you do use Scanalyzers to identify things it's actually quite a high chance to succeed. The base chance per attempt is 80%! And it doesn't even scale depending on the part in question, only the level of the Scanalyzer as with all other hacks, so even without any hackware you should generally get at least one ID out of a Scanalyzer, if not more. (Remember this is different from actually getting the schematic.)

I was only trying to id, not get schematics, and still failed. Maybe I had the bad luck to get 2 level 3 scanalyzers at -6, I don't remember.

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That's pretty accessible, even easier than fabricating stuff, which non-hackers can do as well.

For attach-ID: Sure you can drop things you want to protect, although that doesn't work for processors and has an associated matter cost, plus a cost of still potentially losing something else that you didn't remove (since you're certainly not removing everything). One of the goals of that system is to create risk-reward scenarios with some optional ways to circumvent it but requiring more effort on your part. The effort in this case isn't really tedium, though.

If you do it consistently to protect key parts it is rather repetitive. I find myself saving up prototypes to id them all at once because of this, for example, which is a change in how I would otherwise use inventory. The matter cost may act to discourage tedious behavior but unless it actually does it just makes it more annoying (just have to carry around a matter pod or compressor to avoid running out). Note that because I'm typically preparing for extended (and I'm not very good at it xD) the goal is not typically to survive the current situation, but to prepare for the late and extended game by finding certain important parts (Exp. Targeting Computer, etc.)

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(e.g. I broke a Vortex Chain Reactor by use-id, and recalibrators won't repair them).
Well something that valuable probably should've been removed first xD

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Mass id can at least give you an idea, especially if you're constrained on support and might not even be able to support an item even if it was good.
Of course, it could also have any other number of qualities that simply wouldn't work with your build, either--that just potentially eliminates one of many.

True, but most of them could be made to work with some build on low mass support - the notable troll prototypes I can think of are the Exp. Reclamation Unit (light) and Exp. Field Recycling Unit (heavy). Most things weighing 1-2 are pretty good. Propulsion is a pretty big commitment build-wise though, as is melee vs ranged since they use different suites of processors and utilities.

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I think the talk of ID'ing things is sorta tangential to the idea of whether mass is shown or not, because it leads to meta gaming that suggests you should use a wiki for optimal play, even more so once you're experienced, which is kinda the opposite of what Cogmind wants to be (even though some players do enjoy using outside info to make important decisions, if it's avoidable in a case like this why not remove it?).

I think the connection is that I find mass ID and context ID (e.g. learning loadouts of prototype bots or cross-referencing hauler manifests or caches or layouts in particular branches) to be the fun part of the ID game, losing a build by attaching a random faulty utility off the floor not so fun. If it didn't risk so much damage to other parts (e.g. 200+ damage to storage units, which I experienced in my current run) or completely breaking important parts it might be more fun. As it is, I tend to avoid it most of the time when I have a build I care about, typically after the first half of the game.

Processors are a category where mass id doesn't work at all and I typically wait until I either have a Component Analysis Suite or a Scanalyzer to id them instead of risking attaching them. (Also partly because you can still use a scanalyzer on a faulty processor to get the schematic, but only if it's not attached.) That's different and I suppose it proves you don't entirely need mass id, but I find it less fun to wait sometimes for floors before finding out it wasn't something you needed anyway.

I see a bit of tension between enjoying the main game as it's designed (taking risks, experimenting, rebuilding when things go wrong) and being able to win ++ which requires -- in my experience -- minimizing risks of a certain kind, like attaching potentially faulty prototypes, and other tedious preparation. In the context of the first play style I think I can even agree with removing mass id as tedious, even if I want those last bits of lore from ++. :)
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Kyzrati

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Re: Show mass for unknown items in scan window
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2020, 11:14:13 PM »

I was only trying to id, not get schematics, and still failed. Maybe I had the bad luck to get 2 level 3 scanalyzers at -6, I don't remember.
Yeah I saw, just pointing out that the chance is actually pretty high and not that inaccessible in general (unless going for schematics, especially good ones).

I see a bit of tension between enjoying the main game as it's designed (taking risks, experimenting, rebuilding when things go wrong) and being able to win ++ which requires -- in my experience -- minimizing risks of a certain kind, like attaching potentially faulty prototypes, and other tedious preparation. In the context of the first play style I think I can even agree with removing mass id as tedious, even if I want those last bits of lore from ++. :)
Hehe, true, there is that tension, which can be kinda problematic because the extended game is very hard no matter what.

Anyway, I'll have to ask around and see if there is any more input from a range of player skill levels, but I'm guessing a consensus wouldn't really be possible...
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