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Author Topic: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."  (Read 4624 times)

ukulele

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"Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« on: August 29, 2016, 04:27:31 PM »

Coincidentally I was looking into buying a cheap portable computer for doing work on while commuting, and first thing I will do tomorrow is replace Win10 with linux (probably a minimum install) to boost performance (!).  ;)

So it made me think another area cogmind does well on is Low specs make it perfect for cheaper computers or old hardware.

Not a massive insight, but a good basis given many games are so demanding on hardware and hence price. I definitely select games based off how simple their specs are.

I look forward to listening to this part (on boosting mainstream appeal/enjoyment) of your speech on going from hobbyist to full-time RL dev. I definitely think the dynamic environment (simulation), the info-rich dynamic GUI/HUD (& info-rich interrogation of the environment by the player/cogmind too!) and ideally multiple playstyles are key to boosting appeal more broadly to more players? Of course the quality assets really helps here for players who can't get into ascii (me for example).




« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 04:29:04 PM by ukulele »
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Kyzrati

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2016, 06:48:48 PM »

Hm, I hadn't thought of the low spec situation as it relates to this topic. Certainly helps the game reach more players, and certainly makes it easier on development, too! One of the biggest problems among other devs I see basing their game on a custom engine is that there is so much different GPU hardware out there that it's hard to avoid a lot of customer support issues with drivers and whatnot. Cogmind, on the other hand, doesn't even require any particular video card, which seems like a rather unusual situation given that it's still flashy and looks good, but not having a video card requirement is the norm among traditional roguelikes :D

I often muse that on Steam Cogmind's graphics card sys req will just read "N/A" or "Anything."

I'll definitely be working some of this topic into the end of the talk where I can cover what I'm doing now. (For anyone who isn't aware, ukulele is referring to next month's Roguelike Celebration mentioned again in the most recent update.) Since it's only 25 minutes in all I won't be going into a lot of detail, but I know that a number of people were looking forward to the original topic, and it makes sense to cover it a bit since that's what I'm working on now.

Just last night I submitted my description of the talk for the schedule:
Quote
From Hobbyist to Full-time Roguelike Developer. Tracing my route from before I even knew what a roguelike was to years of exploring the genre and community before setting out to create a grand and innovative roguelike with just the right mix of traditional and modern features to help guide the genre towards a more mainstream audience without losing anything that makes roguelikes great.
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ukulele

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2016, 08:24:38 AM »

Good to hear. I've read all the blogs and the dev work is so awesome to follow that I sincerely hope the aim of helping take traditional roguelikes mainstream more alongside the derivatives (rogue-lites or PDL's (procedural death labyrinths)) works via cogmind.

I looked at a list with the search term or tag "roguelike" on Steam wondering about this question and also curious what sort of games there were and trying to work out which were popular or seemed to work well. I did not get any rigorous conclusions eye-balling it without maybe more thoroughly looking at data (usage/sales etc). But it seems that good presentation immediately grabs interest. Then "lots of interesting/cool things to talk about" hooks that interest you notice different people reviewing aka they have stories to tell about the game and of course how much they've been playing clocking hours in it because it's replay friendly with a fresh story per time or complex system to mess with, I guess.

Traditional roguelike being turn-based may also be less immediately, but it's still good.

The other area I think that can boost appeal:-

1. Playstyles.

So I was really happy to see your latest posting on reddit concerning melee builds and the awesome item artwork. I'll still try to and shoot enemies in the back given a choice however.  8) I suppose people like a lot of choice when starting out with a game. I noticed in the roguelike reddit various interests in different aspects of roguelikes: spaceship roguelike, superhero roguelike or necromancer roguelike... it does seem good that cogmind is very lego-like at heart of the game?! I did wonder if a super special easter egg was mind-transfer to takeover other robots in the game (the fabled but never found by anyone magic item in the game!). :P

2. Objectives.

It seems roguelike objectives are in and out of the death maze overall purpose most effectively. But what if there is objectives such as find particular things or percentages of things per run, destroy certain percentage or x of level per run, avoid detection for x per level, rescue something/robot etc. I notice players often comment on a particular mini-success or massive-failure in fond terms equally because the story was personal or fabulously unexpected.

Obviously there's limits in scope of the game dev, but different obectives as it were within the overall story arc add diversity (optional or pre-arranged). Guess you'd need a main menu where you set certain parameters that make this conducive however, which would be enormous development to undertake? I don't know if other traditional roguelikes ever take this approach?

3. Meta- Knowledge

Obviously this is the player skill increase and mastery of the roguelike environment. For example I saw this map of the AI movements posted on reddit and was blown away by the idea of how interesting it might be to decipher the 'dungeon's' secrets, the patrol behaviours of the robots and the types from this image: https://i.imgur.com/vZg7OiG.gif and understand the system! A good place to spend time.  I notice people cited how the game was a worthy challenge or not ie earnt progress vs the fairness of challenge the game throws at you. This was commented in different forms a good amount.

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Kyzrati

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2016, 08:42:57 AM »

So I was really happy to see your latest posting on reddit concerning melee builds and the awesome item artwork.
While from the beginning there have been a few amorphous play styles, I definitely want to balance it out so that a few of the extra styles become more feasible. Melee is one of them, and that will be easier with the new parts, plus some more specialized ones like a cannon-based sniper/guerrilla build (with the capacitor--though that item won't be as easy to obtain as actuators). I've also been working towards making datajacking and assistance from allies any increasingly viable strategy. That's gotten easier with almost every release so far.

Obviously there's limits in scope of the game dev, but different obectives as it were within the overall story arc add diversity (optional or pre-arranged). Guess you'd need a main menu where you set certain parameters that make this conducive however, which would be enormous development to undertake? I don't know if other traditional roguelikes ever take this approach?
This would manifest itself in terms of achievements, I believe, something that many games have or add when joining Steam, so something I'll be thinking about more later. Basically one angle of what you're talking about is built-in conducts, which are common in the roguelike world but are usually self-enforced by players themselves. We could formalize that without too much trouble.

Cogmind does already include bonus points for achieving specific story-related goals on the journey upward, and the number of those is increasing as more and more NPCs and events are added, until eventually we'll also get the multiple endings (later this year). That stuff appears more in the mid-game, and then really starts to expand in the late game where there are lots of different things going on.

3. Meta- Knowledge
There's definitely a lot of this going on in Cogmind (and in areas not normally found in roguelikes), enough that it can be quite challenging for both beginners and experienced roguelike players alike. Honestly I believe this could be a stumbling block for new players and there will likely be some backlash from those not willing to... do a little thinking. Some players will undoubtedly assume this means there's something wrong with the game, but in the bigger picture it succeeds at doing what I want it to do, and I'm not really willing to make adjustments that might ease entry into the world at the cost of sacrificing early game replayability. Cogmind's world is wide yet (very intentionally) only 10 floors deep, so there isn't as much time to let the difficulty ramp up too gradually.

In that one sense it's not the perfect roguelike to attempt going more mainstream, but hopefully the many other positive factors can carry it :P

I sincerely hope the aim of helping take traditional roguelikes mainstream more alongside the derivatives works via cogmind.
This will depend a lot on how much buzz there is around the game once it's on Steam. The current community of supporters is great, though we'll need publicity outside the regular channels before everyone else can discover it xD

There are a lot of games tagged "roguelike" on Steam, but most are actually roguelites so the term is now being dominated by non-traditional games. I hope that doesn't cause problems in terms of expectations (or worse, outright aversion due to its overuse as a marketing term, when Cogmind really has much stronger roots in the genre).
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ukulele

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2016, 04:45:33 PM »

Melee is one of them, and that will be easier with the new parts, plus some more specialized ones like a cannon-based sniper/guerrilla build (with the capacitor--though that item won't be as easy to obtain as actuators). I've also been working towards making datajacking and assistance from allies any increasingly viable strategy. That's gotten easier with almost every release so far.

That's music to my ears! I appreciate it must be an incredibly fine line between:-

  • Optimized parameters for a really taunt competitive optimizers to complete the entire run eg avoid farming strategies or other such "easy pickings"
  • Allowing a bit of slack for players to feel for different solutions and experimentation

On the one hand, the former seems the main focus (depth). On the other hand, the latter adds a bit of breadth (I guess this may help accessibility, wider audience... just a blind guess however).


This would manifest itself in terms of achievements, I believe, something that many games have or add when joining Steam, so something I'll be thinking about more later. Basically one angle of what you're talking about is built-in conducts, which are common in the roguelike world but are usually self-enforced by players themselves. We could formalize that without too much trouble.

Ah yeah "Achievements" is the common standard in games. I vaguely recall the different types of player ala Bartle: Explorer, Killer, Achiever and iirc Role-Player. Sounds like those are beginning to be well catered for with stats, lore, playstyles and mastery of the mechanics over time.


Honestly I believe this could be a stumbling block for new players and there will likely be some backlash from those not willing to... do a little thinking. Some players will undoubtedly assume this means there's something wrong with the game, but in the bigger picture it succeeds at doing what I want it to do, and I'm not really willing to make adjustments that might ease entry into the world at the cost of sacrificing early game replayability. Cogmind's world is wide yet (very intentionally) only 10 floors deep, so there isn't as much time to let the difficulty ramp up too gradually.

In that one sense it's not the perfect roguelike to attempt going more mainstream, but hopefully the many other positive factors can carry it :P

The biggest "early impressions hook" is undoubtedly the superlative effects from the rexpaint tool used to create the matrix/mecha vibe and then the UI feels like a 1st person view of the robot atst as a top-down view of the robot, then add the info tools on the screen.

I remember playing desktop dungeons when it was in alpha (much preferred the graphics in that version tbh) and it was good because the info of my choices was fairly clear to see how I could win (think I enjoyed playing an archer or other devious char play-style). But I got to a point where I did not understand my choices were not winning - namely I could not find the info that told me how to evaluate my next moves. I guess this is a core staple of roguelikes - but I think if it's visible what sort of idk calculations (?) are inherent in which choices and then the player can work out the different trade-offs? I found the same problem with mmorpgs. All in all it got the point where I did not care about the graphics, I just wanted a combat log dump to be able to make it more explicit what numbers were happening when and why which would then tell me more clearly how to make better choices (or which button to spam!!).

I don't know if any roguelikes ever did a system where it involves the character using a "predict all oppenent's next moves" analysis shadow type representation? Maybe some sort of tool like that for newbies mode on level 1?! Then it gets electro-magnetic or other blast destroyed just as they hit the stairs to level 2...  :D Of course the predictor would be marginally accurate and marginally mistaken?

Similarly a sort of "rewind" style of option to evaluate wtf!? just happened crutch for new players, maybe a good number of moves to replay different options in a particular scenario... an interesting hypothetical maybe? Of course that's supposed to happen per live run for most players in roguelikes.

I sincerely hope the aim of helping take traditional roguelikes mainstream more alongside the derivatives works via cogmind.
This will depend a lot on how much buzz there is around the game once it's on Steam. The current community of supporters is great, though we'll need publicity outside the regular channels before everyone else can discover it xD

There are a lot of games tagged "roguelike" on Steam, but most are actually roguelites so the term is now being dominated by non-traditional games. I hope that doesn't cause problems in terms of expectations (or worse, outright aversion due to its overuse as a marketing term, when Cogmind really has much stronger roots in the genre).

It's a big problem: Visibility or "Discoverability", more curation needed to more diligently classify using more tags more accurately applied. I don't know what tags you've decided on for cogmind:-

* Roguelike
* sci-fi (scifi)
* mecha or robot
* acii and tileset
* indie (this is a very powerful tag)

etc. In fact the core features bit of info is really useful in this respect:-

* dynamic char progression
* full world lore backstory
* AI-driven robot ecosystem
* destructable environment
* 00's of unique weapons and equipment (acii art)
* customizable UI?
* Stats metrics of each run (interesting if persistent graphing comparisons of different run stats maybe, can't remember how much of this is already discussed).

Those seem like they'll press most people's buttons the right way (the dollar button in particular!).

Anyway apologies for the wall of text.

(Kyz edit: fixed a quote tag for you--made post hard to read :P)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 09:49:35 AM by Kyzrati »
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Kyzrati

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2016, 09:57:21 AM »

On the one hand, the former seems the main focus (depth). On the other hand, the latter adds a bit of breadth (I guess this may help accessibility, wider audience... just a blind guess however).
True, and my current disposition is to slightly favor the side of the better / more dedicated players, which especially shows in the tighter and less forgiving early game, whereas everything really opens up by the mid/late-games. I am considering some options on how to accommodate accessibility needs, but not ready to talk about that yet :)

I don't know if any roguelikes ever did a system where it involves the character using a "predict all oppenent's next moves" analysis shadow type representation? Maybe some sort of tool like that for newbies mode on level 1?! Then it gets electro-magnetic or other blast destroyed just as they hit the stairs to level 2...  :D Of course the predictor would be marginally accurate and marginally mistaken?

Similarly a sort of "rewind" style of option to evaluate wtf!? just happened crutch for new players, maybe a good number of moves to replay different options in a particular scenario... an interesting hypothetical maybe? Of course that's supposed to happen per live run for most players in roguelikes.
I don't believe other roguelikes have done that before, no. Death is supposed to be the best teacher, though one of the difficulties with Cogmind compared to other roguelikes is that death is not swift. Certainly this is also an advantage, since it does away with the issue of unfair instakills, and enables players to have a chance at survival even when everything suddenly goes south. But for new players it makes backtracking to their last game-ending mistake all that much more difficult, if there even was a specific mistake! (It's often a sequence of mistakes.)

Rewind/replay would be a fun and useful tool, though sadly the engine doesn't support it. I guess the stand-in learning tool in that case would be save scumming. For those who aren't against it :P

It's a big problem: Visibility or "Discoverability", more curation needed to more diligently classify using more tags more accurately applied. I don't know what tags you've decided on for cogmind:-
Well, tags are determined by users, so I don't think I have any real control over that--all of you do :)

Anyway apologies for the wall of text.
Always welcome! Just sometimes mean I could take longer to get back :P
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Shadowfury333

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2016, 12:34:29 PM »

Being able to undo moves to an arbitrary point doesn't seem in keeping with the genre, but it would be nice to have some quick overview of the last 30 or so moves (Crypt of the Necrodancer does something similar, though it only shows ~10 moves before death). A full replay system would also be nice, since you'd be looking for the error in judgement, but I understand if that's tricky to set up.
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ukulele

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2016, 02:04:39 PM »

It's often a sequence of mistakes.

Yeah, I noticed this in the video plays: Someone would be trundling along getting by quite well, then they'd pick up some "heat" (I mean enemy robot attention) and it would very quickly escalate into a mini battle-zone, sometimes the classic "beginning of the end" unless they found a way to rebuild before being overwhelmed by subsequent waves.

The take-home I got, was try to avoid direct conflict and go guerilla for as much as possible. The other thing I saw was, backing off around corners and into doorways (or 1-sq wide tunnels) was a smart move (Sun Tzu: Make the enemy fight on your preferred ground/terms).

I guess that first engagement is where a lot of decision-making should be assessed by players and subsequent events are a cascade from that. It's much more chess-like than other genres in that way.

I wonder if you considered changing the cogminds size depending on how much stuff it has accumulated and assimilated: A full mecha-type standing 10 metres+ high carrying tons of "back-up" to a sleek little drone the size of a small motorbike and represented that in the little "c" to a big "C" or or similar in the tileset depiction?


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Kyzrati

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2016, 08:38:12 PM »

I wonder if you considered changing the cogminds size depending on how much stuff it has accumulated and assimilated: A full mecha-type standing 10 metres+ high carrying tons of "back-up" to a sleek little drone the size of a small motorbike and represented that in the little "c" to a big "C" or or similar in the tileset depiction?
I did imagine it before, yes, but it couldn't be up for serious consideration since such a mechanic would have a disproportionately large impact on the gameplay. You'd no longer fit through most doorways, or any of the many narrow corridors. Would be fun, but more appropriate for a smaller game where that is almost the core mechanic.
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ukulele

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2016, 03:25:02 PM »

Yup sounds like more overhead!

Think the talk is on in under an hour 3:15 sanfran time: https://roguelike.club/schedule.html

Very interested to hear/see this one!! I wonder if saying roguelikes are more like chess/boardgames than other genres of video games tend to be (oc other genres exist which do these/are these...)?
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ukulele

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2016, 08:47:18 AM »

Well, that was just awesome.

Cogmind talk was easily the most gratifying to watch (the comments system perked up a lot watching it too which was funny): The demonstration of so much because the visuals and extras are so intelligently designed with such high quality. Also the concept is damn tight.

There was a couple of other speeches and whoa, more dev talent in the roguelike genre, two in particular: iirc brogue and the other one the woman who does ai research; they were seriously good. The most interesting roguelike imo was of course dwarf fortress in how it expanding the dungeon, the character into an entire world and history simulation (a great top level diagram they produced of this).

But the one that I want to play the most? Cogmind, easily. It was obvious there was so much to talk about which could not fit the full presentation, so maybe some of that will be in a blog!  8)

Definitely inspired, at some point I may try to do a roguelike in python and the insights into how much time and learning and good habits was really useful: It makes such a prospect feel as if there's some "reality checks" to definitely consult along the way!

One bit I remember from one speech: The "Fun Optimality" of gameplay. I think the brogue dev managed to describe how to get this very well talking about a player's line through the game as building their narrative and varying things around this, in particular the environment. But that players could optimize play through tedious means but ideally optimizing would come from fun. It seems to me the Crawl dev was successful in producing various character choices and players to create builds very organically specific to their run fitted this well.

Well, I hope the idea of play-styles in cogmind fits into this beneficially for the mainstream with this "Fun Optimality". Definitely a few true roguelikes on steam with good numbers of players purchases and positive review scores (interesting new review filters too imo is good). They could do with sorting out the tags: "roguelike" and "true roguelike" maybe?

There was discussion about "permadeath" being a name that is perhaps not perfect for describing the intent of roguelikes. Personally I like it, but an alternative: "Alive In The Moment" games or AIM (if you drop "the") or MAIT (if you wrap the words Moment Alive In The  yoda style of wisdom). Really I think this is the essence of the roguelike over other games and the present only gains meaning from persistence or as we tend to habitually think of it: "permadeath": Where the story is finally "defined". Again DF was amazing in that you'd start stories (adv. or fortress) then you'd make news ones that would bump into these old ones; or their remains!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 08:51:02 AM by ukulele »
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Kyzrati

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Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2016, 08:44:01 PM »

I definitely could talk for a lot longer, and in greater detail, about quite a few topics, though in this case I already bit off more than I could chew in a mere 30 minutes :P. My postmortem writeup is now here.

Brian Walker (Brogue) did an excellent talk, for sure. Was fun chatting with him about different roguelike features later that evening. Also interesting to hear about the environment being his jumping off point for the design. Optimal play is certainly one of the most important factors one can consider in making a roguelike, and something I pay close attention to as well. Really most devs do, except in cases where the design is somewhat looser, as in, say, NetHack.

Would be nice to have a separate tag on Steam for the "true roguelikes," but that's up to users, not Valve, so it's not likely going to happen xD

The Rogue creators' permadeath comments have certainly ignited a lot of conversation since then. It's being talked about on /r/roguelikes as well.
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