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Author Topic: Scoring Factors, a Discussion  (Read 5777 times)

Kyzrati

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Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« on: July 26, 2015, 09:02:43 PM »

Edit: This discussion was born out of the Weekly Seed #2.

I was actually referring to the other three folks that got Cogmind keys along with me :)
Oh, haha, "those" winners =p

Yeah, only about a quarter of players have signed up on the forums. Some prefer /r/Cogmind, and then others just play and follow development silently (or even just bought to support development and get the alpha rewards and are still waiting for 1.0 :P)

Those few in particular I'm not sure about.

I noticed that a lot of the score is derived from 'value destroyed', but I don't know what that refers to. Reactors and stuff like that? I'm thinking you can actually farm up quite a lot of score by flying around with a rocket launcher and just destroying stuff safely while avoiding any tricky combat and then hack down the alert level and keep doing it for a while.
Value destroyed includes any robots or, yes, even machines, that you take out.

I already have "anti-farming mechanics" on my list of things to address very soon. Security level was originally designed to put a natural flexible cap on that, and works well except for the fact that you could indeed focus on hacking it down and nearly perpetually control a floor (especially the earlier ones). This is even easier with the recent changes to security level mechanics. Haven't decided what to do about it yet...
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 09:35:54 AM by Kyzrati »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2015, 11:51:31 PM »

Haven't decided what to do about it yet...
I was just mulling over this and came up with what may seem like a somewhat mean yet very logical solution: Any successful Alert(Purge) hacks lower your final score. It ties into the whole "the more dangerous and confrontational your approach, the higher your score" thing. This has the added advantage of discouraging overuse of threat purges, while encouraging other hacking options.
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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2015, 12:55:02 AM »

Haven't decided what to do about it yet...
I was just mulling over this and came up with what may seem like a somewhat mean yet very logical solution: Any successful Alert(Purge) hacks lower your final score. It ties into the whole "the more dangerous and confrontational your approach, the higher your score" thing. This has the added advantage of discouraging overuse of threat purges, while encouraging other hacking options.

That sounds good for achieving what you're after. Seems dodgy though that a useful hack is disincentivised in the scoring. Also, I still don't quite like that scoring is correlated with how messy (or combat-oriented) your game was. In games like DCSS, the faster the win in turn count, the higher the score, which is both logical and elegant. The difference is that a combat approach in Cogmind is a lot harder, which isn't the case in DCSS.

I'm going to keep doing fast and stealthy runs despite the fact that they don't score very well currently, just because the ideal of a low damage taken, low environmental impact, low turn count game appeals to me and seems a nice way to win any game, including Cogmind. Of course, I will spend some time with combat runs as well.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 12:58:05 AM by zxc »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2015, 01:42:31 AM »

I was just mulling over this and came up with what may seem like a somewhat mean yet very logical solution: Any successful Alert(Purge) hacks lower your final score. It ties into the whole "the more dangerous and confrontational your approach, the higher your score" thing. This has the added advantage of discouraging overuse of threat purges, while encouraging other hacking options.
That sounds good for achieving what you're after. Seems dodgy though that a useful hack is disincentivised in the scoring.

Also, I still don't quite like that scoring is correlated with how messy (or combat-oriented) your game was. In games like DCSS, the faster the win in turn count, the higher the score, which is both logical and elegant. The difference is that a combat approach in Cogmind is a lot harder, which isn't the case in DCSS.
I agree that it's and odd solution, and agree even more about the unusual scoring system.

My original desire/plan was to completely do away with the 7DRL system and make it just as rewarding, scorewise, regardless of your approach, emphasizing that it does still take a lot of know-how and skill to win via speed, just different kinds of skills. But considering the way the world works it's quite difficult to come up with a fair system that also achieves that goal.

DCSS is made up of a static world, where Cogmind's dynamic world creates a much stronger resistance to anyone who puts up a respectable fight. I very much enjoy that part of the design, as you've observed it also necessitates a more unique scoring system that reflects the realities of the gameplay.

There is still room for evolution in the system, which can wait until the world is more complete and new alternative routes are available.
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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2015, 06:59:34 AM »

This is getting off topic, but I like the farming issue being discussed.

Using Alert(Purge) score deduction would solve the problem (no point score farming through wanton destruction if you're not actually getting a score benefit), but it uses a meta, non in-game mechanism to alter gameplay behavior.  I think it's preferable when player behavior is modified by in-game consequences as opposed to meta consequences.

I can think of two solutions.  One, wholesale destruction of machinery eventually raises the Alert level to an extent that outpaces purges.  The logic being, the global AI is not going to like you when you're running around blowing up robots and getting beefy, but it's really not going to like you when you're destroying large swathes of the complex itself.

Solution 2, give level wide consequences to the destruction of things like reactors.  Currently, the player cares about terminals, scanalyzers, repair stations, etc.  The player doesn't really care about reactors or the like, except to the extent that you want to take care to no get caught in their blast radius, and sometimes want to blow them up from afar to take out enemies.  But surely those neutriono reactors, etc are serving some purpose for the complex.  What if destroying certain structures had a chance to make nearby Terminals and so forth shut down?   the flavor explanation is that the terminal is depowered without the reactor.  If there was no guarantee that there would be a functioning terminal around for a purge, that would thoroughly disincentivize blowing the crap out of everything.
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Reiver

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 09:17:23 PM »

Solution 2, give level wide consequences to the destruction of things like reactors.  Currently, the player cares about terminals, scanalyzers, repair stations, etc.  The player doesn't really care about reactors or the like, except to the extent that you want to take care to no get caught in their blast radius, and sometimes want to blow them up from afar to take out enemies.  But surely those neutriono reactors, etc are serving some purpose for the complex.  What if destroying certain structures had a chance to make nearby Terminals and so forth shut down?   the flavor explanation is that the terminal is depowered without the reactor.  If there was no guarantee that there would be a functioning terminal around for a purge, that would thoroughly disincentivize blowing the crap out of everything.

This. It could also add to the verisimilitude of the whole setup; wonton destruction results in harming the base in meaningful ways. Of course, the more critical the component, the more valuable the score... ;)

Alternative: Purging alerts is also tracked. Too many, too reguarly (aka dozens of times on a single level, a key to farming in relative safety) starts risking triggering a 'sysadmin' response from [EXPUNGED]. This response is not gentle. The difference between getting caught by automatic security systems, and something going "Wait, that activity looks a little funny... OH CRAP I've been hacked for the past three hours BURN EVERYTHING" ;)
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Kyzrati

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2015, 09:45:34 AM »

Using Alert(Purge) score deduction would solve the problem (no point score farming through wanton destruction if you're not actually getting a score benefit), but it uses a meta, non in-game mechanism to alter gameplay behavior.
That's an interesting conclusion, certainly different from what I was thinking. My intent was to adjust score in a way that purely reflects the difficulty created by your choices, while here I believe (?) you're assuming the player's goal is to maximize their score. I personally don't care about score other than as a fair reflection of how challenging the run was, so it wouldn't bother me, but I can see that change rubbing some players the wrong way, those who go for score. That said, the latter category of players could already be irked by the fact that stealth runs are inherently low scoring...

One, wholesale destruction of machinery eventually raises the Alert level to an extent that outpaces purges.
The main issue I see with this option is balance, because a really good hacker can theoretically always purge all alerts.

I do like the idea of greater implications for machine destruction, though this topic extends beyond just machines to robots, which are where the points really lie. You can theoretically get the AI to call in a large number of squads, if you think you can handle them, and mow them all down for points. Machines aren't repairable, anyway, but there is an endless supply of robots.

Another alternative would be to limit the number or combined effect of your purges. Maybe each time you do it on the same floor it becomes less effective (which could be explained logically in a number of ways).

Farming is solved in some other roguelikes via out-of-depth encounters, though we don't necessarily want to tie that to a specific number of turns like in DCSS. Something bigger/nastier could show up, but it would have to have a good reason... perhaps what Reiver suggests below :D

Solution 2, give level wide consequences to the destruction of things like reactors.  Currently, the player cares about terminals, scanalyzers, repair stations, etc.  The player doesn't really care about reactors or the like, except to the extent that you want to take care to no get caught in their blast radius, and sometimes want to blow them up from afar to take out enemies.  But surely those neutriono reactors, etc are serving some purpose for the complex.  What if destroying certain structures had a chance to make nearby Terminals and so forth shut down?   the flavor explanation is that the terminal is depowered without the reactor.  If there was no guarantee that there would be a functioning terminal around for a purge, that would thoroughly disincentivize blowing the crap out of everything.
This. It could also add to the verisimilitude of the whole setup; wonton destruction results in harming the base in meaningful ways. Of course, the more critical the component, the more valuable the score... ;)
I do like the way that goes both ways, like so many other aspects of the game.

Alternative: Purging alerts is also tracked. Too many, too reguarly (aka dozens of times on a single level, a key to farming in relative safety) starts risking triggering a 'sysadmin' response from [EXPUNGED]. This response is not gentle. The difference between getting caught by automatic security systems, and something going "Wait, that activity looks a little funny... OH CRAP I've been hacked for the past three hours BURN EVERYTHING" ;)
This sounds both very mean and very fun at the same time :D

Maybe a combination of this and the diminishing returns.
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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2015, 11:01:13 AM »

You can also simply permanently lower the success rate for alert purges each time one is successful, so eventually it can't be purged even with the best hacking gear.
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Reiver

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2015, 04:13:36 PM »

I don't know. Assassin-bots shouldn't be penalised for wrecking things and then sneaking off and cooling off the clock with a little hacking.

That said, if it's diminishing returns on each level, that could be a different proposition entirely. ;)
I think I prefer the 'sudden and violent response' variety better, though. Especially if, ha, getting caught is what makes the Purge command lose power... so once you've been snapped, even if you do manage to flee to the exit, your alert-hacking is permanently impeded a bit. Which means to keep it up, you'd need to do more hacks... oh, wait. :D
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Kyzrati

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2015, 08:25:57 AM »

I don't know. Assassin-bots shouldn't be penalised for wrecking things and then sneaking off and cooling off the clock with a little hacking.

That said, if it's diminishing returns on each level, that could be a different proposition entirely. ;)
That's what I meant--purely a floor-specific effect that resets with each new map.

So you can do it to an extent, but it should achieve the intended goal of making farming impossible, and making floors more and more dangerous the longer you stay, which is how I wanted it in the first place (but then added multiple ways to circumvent those mechanics).


I think I prefer the 'sudden and violent response' variety better, though. Especially if, ha, getting caught is what makes the Purge command lose power... so once you've been snapped, even if you do manage to flee to the exit, your alert-hacking is permanently impeded a bit. Which means to keep it up, you'd need to do more hacks... oh, wait. :D
I do like the idea of increasing chances of a strong backlash, though thinking of the results, it would probably scare players into using it too rarely. There is only the potential that purges will make it easier before you find an exit anyway, while balancing that against the potential for vastly increased danger makes the variables a bit too hard to predict.

You can also simply permanently lower the success rate for alert purges each time one is successful, so eventually it can't be purged even with the best hacking gear.
Hm, that's a really simple and elegant solution that will have the same effect... although most players are using manual hacks for purges, which don't show you the chance of success, so this would be somewhat opaque to anyone new who wasn't paying attention to the fail messages (which indicate how close you were to succeeding--if you keep getting catastrophic failures with good hacking gear, you know you've gone too far).

I might go with the increasing difficulty at first, because it can also be applied to the other behavior control hacks like squad recalls (which I'm not even sure anyone's been using).
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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2015, 11:11:15 PM »

I might go with the increasing difficulty at first, because it can also be applied to the other behavior control hacks like squad recalls (which I'm not even sure anyone's been using).

Mostly because either:
a) there is no squad to recall
b) its currently punching you in the face

The middle ground between those two options is often in a narrow enough time-scale that even if the player knows about it the instant it spawns, the time it would take to reach a terminal and use the command would exceed the time to confrontation, excepting rare circumstances, such as a failed hack spawning a squad.  In which case, you'd have to be pretty damn lucky to get a successful recall before being locked out (I think the base success rate on those is only around 50% anyway).
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Kyzrati

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2015, 11:38:14 PM »

Agreed that the intermediate window of opportunity can be relatively small in some circumstances. However, sometimes a squad can take a while to reach your position if it entered the map from a distant access point, and note that not all squads are called to you, but instead to a location on the map, so you can effectively reduce the number of active squads via recalls.

We'll re-examine the efficacy of all hacks later on.
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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2015, 11:52:08 PM »

note that not all squads are called to you, but instead to a location on the map

These gems of info. I should've been able to deduce this as we know only programmers perfectly track you, but this is still enlightening. Leaving the scene of a massive battle quickly is so critical and failing to do so might be why my alert level spirals out of control.


Separate discussion, but as an experiment earlier in the challenge, I tried running around destroying EVERY bit of machinery I found. I wanted to see if this made the score something insane. Eventually I reached -2 and died in typical fashion, but I only got 15k score for that run. It was quite odd. Is machine value destroyed multiplied by alert level or something?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 11:54:14 PM by zxc »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2015, 12:01:53 AM »

Sort of ;). Since the source of information for these isn't in game yet, I'll just tell you that assault squads also go straight to your location (I may change that under certain circumstances, but that would also make me want to raise your influence rate again); the other two types of squads do not target you specifically.

All those Haulers you attack without jamming them, and Operators you let send out an alarm before destroying them or disabling their terminal (that's another good tactic, you know :P), are just calling more robots into the area. That said, those same squads will also leave the map if they don't find any trouble after a certain period.

Technically you can learn these things if and when capable of hacking squad locations after they're called in and follow where they go via multiple hacks combined with referencing your intel overlay.

Regardless, it's bad practice in general to hang out in the same area too long.
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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2015, 01:34:30 AM »

All those Haulers you attack without jamming them

So jamming DOES work on them! Then why did you say that they only worked on hostiles?

or disabling their terminal (that's another good tactic, you know :P)
I've made excellent use of this already :)

One odd thing is that I keep getting new maps where an operator starts in full view of me. I screenshotted one of those instances:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I entered the level at the square I've highlighted, two steps away from where I am in that image.
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Draco18s

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2015, 08:23:26 AM »

One odd thing is that I keep getting new maps where an operator starts in full view of me. I screenshotted one of those instances:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=268.0
Operators aren't considered combat units for the purposes of restricted spawning.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2015, 08:14:20 PM »

All those Haulers you attack without jamming them
So jamming DOES work on them! Then why did you say that they only worked on hostiles?
Oh, damn, because I forgot. Jamming doesn't work on them ;). Coincidentally I think that's an additional argument against the jamming of passive robots, as that makes it way too easy to intercept Haulers without cost.

I should rephrase my original comment: "All those Haulers you attack without one-shotting them" :P. To prevent them from calling for reinforcements, I hit them with everything I've got under the most advantageous circumstances, and if it doesn't work out that way, I leave the area ASAP (usually after chasing down the Hauler to take it out anyway, since they've already done their thing).
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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2015, 09:58:43 PM »

I should rephrase my original comment: "All those Haulers you attack without one-shotting them" :P.

Indeed I've made use of the Haulers' inability to squeal for help when you one-shot them. However, my more usual tactic is to attack them in an isolated area where even if they scream, no-one will come looking.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2015, 10:19:26 PM »

Yep, that's half the battle. Note that sending out a distress call is different from calling reinforcements.
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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2015, 06:39:23 PM »

I might go with the increasing difficulty at first, because it can also be applied to the other behavior control hacks like squad recalls (which I'm not even sure anyone's been using).

Mostly because either:
a) there is no squad to recall
b) its currently punching you in the face

The middle ground between those two options is often in a narrow enough time-scale that even if the player knows about it the instant it spawns, the time it would take to reach a terminal and use the command would exceed the time to confrontation, excepting rare circumstances, such as a failed hack spawning a squad.  In which case, you'd have to be pretty damn lucky to get a successful recall before being locked out (I think the base success rate on those is only around 50% anyway).
Honestly, one of the reasons I don't make use of these is that much of my mental bandwidth is often occupied keeping the map layout straight, and I don't keep track of how many squads are out there, or of which type.  A tracker for the number of each type of squad known to be dispatched (and not encountered) within the last [insert reasonable number of turns here] would be really useful.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2015, 06:45:37 PM »

Useful, but you don't normally have that information unless you hack, in which case those numbers and locations do appear in your intel window.

(Besides that, I do have a previously unannounced idea for a utility that allows you to track the number of hostiles that know your precise location. That won't be going in anytime soon, though.)
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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2015, 06:54:06 PM »

Whoops, I was thinking of the "significant disruption detected, assault force dispatched" message - and those are generally important enough I do track them.  I actually didn't realize squads identified via hacking would be tracked in my intel window. >.<
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Kyzrati

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Re: Scoring Factors, a Discussion
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2015, 07:42:08 PM »

Yep, if you happen to be by a terminal and do an Enumerate(Assaults) hack, you can see exactly where it is marked on your map :D. It won't keep tracking their position continuously, but you'll at least know their distance at that point and what general direction they're probably going to attack from. To see them approaching you can combine that with sensors, even without an interpreter, since it's not hard to guess what's coming at you based on its behavior. Some X turns after an assault announcement, if you see a single ? coming at you at full speed, it should be obvious what it is...
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