Cogmind > Strategies
Large volleys considered harmful *spoiler*
Decker:
--- Quote ---Time will tell whether or how abuseable it is, but preliminary testing says it's 1) hella fun and 2) didn't seem so overpowered that it ensured success by any measure, considering what you have to give up to attach that many weapons.
--- End quote ---
o_O
There's a good reason it doesn't seem overpowered: these changes actually work against you!
Firepower increase since alpha 4:
- 2 slots: 325/300 => +8%.
- 3 slots: 425/325 => +31%.
Hence, in Factory, those hunters and programmers get a +8% damage bonus against you. In Research, thoses bonuses become +31% for terminators and behemoths. Of course, your own firepower also increases, but there's just one of you and many of them. Finding good cover is now even more important, but having good mobility is harder with the heavier storage units. Combine that with the alert(purge) nerf, and combat just got more challenging.
Don't get me wrong: I love that the game is becoming harder.
So, let's talk about volleys. The balance of the game currently sorts these combat variables in the following order of importance:
1) Mobility.
2) Churn rate balance.
3) Inventory size.
4) Integrity + coverage.
5) Exit-finding capabilities.
6) Firepower.
What happens if you confuse ranks 6) and 1) and equip 6 weapons? You get a glass cannon that runs afoul of the food clock and lacks the mobility to deal with the consequences.
Behold.
[Alert] Weapon churn rate HIGH.
[Alert] Alert level HIGH -- HURRY UP.
*Cogmind exploring*
Grunt detected.
*Engaging target*
sssssswwwwwwwwwooooooooooorrrrrrccccCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Target down!!
Grunt detected.
Grunt detected.
Grunt detected.
[DANGER] Engagement OUT IN THE OPEN.
*Engaging hostile 1*
sssssswwwwwwwwwooooooooooorrrrrrccccCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Target down!!
Pink!
Ponk!
ARC deploys payload.
ARC deplays payload.
[CRITICAL] Unsustainable conditions. RETREAT RETREAT RETREAT.
[CRITICAL] Current speed 180 -- TOO SLOW.
[CRITICAL] OVERRIDE -- HEAD FOR NEARBY DOOR AT ALL COSTS.
*Moving*
Pink! Pink! Pong!
Weapon 4 down.
*Moving*
Pang!
*Moving*
Trrrrfgh! Trrrrgh!
Propulsion 1 down.
[CRITICAL] Sustaining HEAVY DAMAGE.
*Moving*
Puck! PLONK! Tff! Tff!
Weapon 3 down.
Weapon 5 down.
*Moving past door*
*Equip*
*Equip*
*Equip*
Pang! Pffft!
*Equip*
Pink! Pink! Pong!
[CRITICAL] KILL FAST
*Engaging hostile 2*
sssssswwwwwwwwwooooooooooorrrrrrccccCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Target down!!
Puck! Puck!
Weapon 6 down.
Secret door opened.
[PANIC] Engagement OUT IN THE OPEN.
*Equip*
Pink! Pink! Pong! Puck! PLONK! Tff! Tff!
Weapon 3 down.
Weapon 2 down.
[PANIC] ...
*Cogmind emits distress signal*
In contrast, in the above scenario, a mobile war bot would use its speed to retreat and fight in a good spot. You can "live off the land" for a long time by vacuuming the items that roll under your feet in a tight corridor. Picking up / equipping items aggressively as they appear (even if it's junk) goes a long way to keep supplies high. That works best if your churn rates are balanced in each category. On average you'll get the items that you need. Being mobile, you can also afford to move under fire to pick up critical items before they disappear.
Example of a mobile war bot.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Stats (buggy score).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)Cogmind - Alpha 5b
Name: Decker
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9) 4500
Robots Destroyed (297) 1485
Value Destroyed (13486) 13486
Prototype IDs (25) 500
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (12787496) 12787496
TOTAL SCORE: 12807467
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 779/1600
Matter 290/300
Energy 45/140
System Corruption 27%
Temperature Cool (12)
Location Surface
Parts
-------
Power (1)
Light Quantum Reactor
Propulsion (14)
Medium Treads
Centrium Leg
Biometal Leg
Biometal Leg
Myomer Leg
Myomer Leg
Improved Anti-Grav System
Medium Treads
Experimental Anti-Grav System
Medium Treads
Improved Anti-Grav System
Improved Anti-Grav System
Improved Anti-Grav System
Improved Anti-Grav System
Utility (7)
Large Storage Unit
Medium Storage Unit
Advanced Heat Sink
Large Storage Unit
Medium Storage Unit
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Weapon (3)
Gamma Rifle
Fusion Bomb Launcher
Enhanced Nova Cannon
Inventory
-----------
Micro Fission Core
Light Particle Reactor
Improved Anti-Grav System
Phase Gun
Phase Gun
Quantum Rifle
Gamma Rifle
Railgun
Railgun
Railgun
Linear Accelerator
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
High-capacity Storage Unit
Matter Compressor
Advanced Terrain Scanner
Experimental Terrain Scan Processor
Improved Medium Armor Plating
Gamma Rifle
High-powered Shock Rifle
Gamma Rifle
Peak State
------------
Power
Improved Quantum Reactor
Propulsion
High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
Experimental Anti-Grav System
Anti-Grav System
High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
Anti-Grav System
Improved Anti-Grav System
High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
Centrium Heavy Treads
High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
Utility
Experimental Terrain Scan Processor
Large Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
Medium Storage Unit
Centrium Medium Armor Plating
Advanced Heat Sink
Weapon
Hypervelocity Railgun
Enhanced Quantum Rifle
Enhanced Quantum Rifle
[Rating: 186]
Favorites
-----------
Power Light Angular Momentum Engine
Engine Light Angular Momentum Engine
Power Core Micro Fission Core
Reactor Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion Flexi-carbon Leg
Treads High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
Leg Flexi-carbon Leg
Hover Unit Improved Anti-Grav System
Flight Unit Field Propulsion Drive
Utility Large Storage Unit
Device Advanced Heat Sink
Storage Large Storage Unit
Processor Experimental Terrain Scan Processor
Hackware Decryption Engine
Protection Improved Medium Armor Plating
Weapon KE Penetrator
Energy Gun Gamma Rifle
Energy Cannon Beam Cannon
Ballistic Gun KE Penetrator
Ballistic Cannon Anti-matter Cannon
Launcher Long-range Missile Launcher
Special Weapon Remote Datajack
Stats
-------
Bonus Breakdown 12787496
Entered Garrisons 200
Win 3000
Fast Win 12784296
Classes Destroyed 19
Worker 23
Builder 34
Tunneler 4
Hauler 8
Recycler 25
Carrier 1
Mechanic 1
Operator 6
Watcher 4
Swarmer 32
Grunt 76
Brawler 3
Duelist 4
Protector 2
Sentry 17
Specialist 1
Hunter 23
Programmer 31
Behemoth 2
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 11
Combat Bots Only 9
Matter Collected 8943
Salvage Created 18286
Parts Attached 514
Power 31
Propulsion 151
Utility 177
Weapon 155
Parts Lost 128
Power 15
Propulsion 52
Utility 15
Weapon 46
Average Slot Usage (%) 94
Naked Turns 2
Spaces Moved 5617
Fastest Speed (%) 434
Average Speed (%) 90
Slowest Speed (%) 12
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 3
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 106
Greatest Overweight (x) 28
Average Overweight (x) 0
Largest Inventory 26
Most Items Carried 26
Average Items Carried 19
Core Damage Taken 2021
Average Core Remaining (%) 79
Depth 10 Exit 100
Depth 9 Exit 75
Depth 8 Exit 93
Depth 7 Exit 91
Depth 6 Exit 18
Depth 5 Exit 81
Depth 4 Exit 94
Depth 3 Exit 100
Depth 2 Exit 95
Depth 1 Exit 48
Volleys Fired 736
Largest 3
Hottest 302
Shots Fired 1946
Gun 1463
Cannon 433
Launcher 34
Special 16
Kinetic 696
Thermal 697
Explosive 34
Electromagnetic 503
Shots Hit Robots 1201
Core Hits 581
Overload Shots 14
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 2
Melee Attacks 0
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 33922
Projectiles 28937
Explosions 4924
Melee 0
Ramming 61
Kinetic 9405
Thermal 12349
Explosive 4165
Electromagnetic 7942
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Self-Inflicted Damage 451
Shots 10
Rammed 3
Highest Temperature 416
Average Temperature 65
Shutdowns 0
Energy Bleed 1
Interference 8
Matter Decay 0
Short Circuit 0
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 27
Average Corruption 7
Message Errors 27
Parts Rejected 8
Data loss (map) 31
Data loss (database) 25
Misfires 6
Misdirections 12
Targeting Errors 116
Weapon Failures 17
Depth 7 End 4
Depth 6 End 3
Depth 5 End 4
Depth 4 End 2
Depth 2 End 3
Depth 1 End 27
Haulers Intercepted 8
Robots Corrupted 31
Robots Melted 0
Power Chain Reactions 0
Tactical Retreats 25
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 0
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 30
Terminals 29
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Garrison Access 1
Machines Hacked 30
Terminals 29
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Garrison Access 1
Total Hacks 102
Successful 30
Failed 72
Catastrophic 26
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 77
Unauthorized 28
Terminals 101
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Garrison Access 1
Terminal Hacks 18
Record 1
Part Schematic 0
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 1
Open Door 1
Level Access Points 5
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Garrison Index 0
Alert Level 1
Unreport Threat 9
Locate Traps 0
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 0
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 51
Full Trace Events 1
Feedback Events 0
Feedback Corruption 0
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Garrisons Disabled 2
Garrisons Compromised 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Built 0
Total Part Build Rating 0
Part Fabrication Matter 0
Part Fabrication Time 0
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 1
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 1
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 1
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 5
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 2
Largest Group 1
Highest-Rated Group 20
Highest-Rated Ally 20
Total Orders 0
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 0
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 9
Total Damage 135
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 1386
Average Influence 466
Final Influence 884
Maximum Alert Level 4
Low Security (%) 37
Level 1 14
Level 2 16
Level 3 23
Level 4 8
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 38
Investigation 3
Extermination 11
Reinforcement 10
Assault 8
Garrison 6
Exploration Rate (%) 14
Regions Visited 14
Garrisons Visited 1
Relays Disabled 4
Generators Disabled 0
Turns Passed 10517
Depth 11 53
Depth 10 231
Depth 9 697
Depth 8 784
Depth 7 1090
Depth 6 3536
Depth 5 733
Depth 4 611
Depth 3 317
Depth 2 584
Depth 1 1881
Scrapyard 53
Materials 1568
Factory 4746
Research 901
Access 1881
Mines 144
Garrison 1224
Prototype IDs
---------------
Cold Fusion Reactor
Compact Particle Reactor
Improved Quantum Reactor
Centrium Heavy Treads
High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
High-density Centrium Leg
Experimental Airjet
Experimental Anti-Grav System
Improved VTOL Module
Advanced Beam Rifle
Compact Ion Cannon
Proton Burst Cannon
Enhanced Coil Gun
Anti-matter Cannon
Rocket Array
Scatter Rocket Array
Advanced EMP Blaster
Guided EMP Blaster
Experimental Terrain Scan Processor
Quarantine Testbed
Centrium Medium Armor Plating
Experimental Melee Analysis Suite
Improved Footprint Analyzer
Decryption Engine
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1450397671
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 268 min
Sessions: 3
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 21
ASCII: 0
Keyboard: 1
Movement: Numpad
Fullscreen: 1
Font: 18/Terminus
Map View: 66x50
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Notice that I'm only using one power source. That's enough to fully sustain two heat sinks, two energy weapons and one kinetic weapon. It's also enough (barely) to power 3-4 hover units as well as terrain scanner/processor outside combat. Adding another power source is not possible without compromising storage, firepower or mobility. The heat sinks are swapped with the terrain scanner/processor every fight.
Sensors: not useful enough to justify the power/slot/inventory/matter/time costs.
Combat utilities: none. I don't have power to spare. I'm not missing much. Combat utilities are low integrity, low coverage, power-draining, hard-to-replace parts. It's a bad combination right there. Besides, only a few top-tier utitilies are useful. Would you really spend a slot for a +4% targetting bonus?
Armor isn't much better. It's heavy, hot, rare, and churns like crazy. Most of the pieces you find are made of recycled paper. 3x slots for 300 total integrity? Riiiiight. The one redeeming feature is that armor protects your core with high coverage. Then again, if you don't find armor, you have to fill the utility slot with junk and *that* compromises your core integrity. In the long run, I feel that armor makes you more vulnerable. In my next game, I'll ditch armor on Factory and replace it with storage. At least it's useful and helps to take off some weight pressure.
[Edit] Ended up using just 6 utility slots and added another propulsion unit. Worked like a charm.
To wrap it up, time is working against you, fighting out in the open is suicidal, and sluggishness makes chute traps deadly rather than a boon. Adding more legs/treads makes you slower, not faster. Put two and two together and get airbone. Or else.
Kyzrati:
Whoa, that's a lot of info.
I disagree on many points, though, even your ordered list of important combat variables.
For me inventory space is not invaluable, nor is mobility in most cases if you're thinking about where conflicts will likely happen before they actually do, and make sure you're in the right position. (On a related note, if you look at Cogmind as a pure numbers game, you'll be omitting the non-quantifiable value of information in warfare, e.g. that gained through sensors and hacking.)
With the added firepower you can now be set up to one-shot anything, including even Behemoths. The effect is even deadlier when you properly line up hostiles!
This, however, is very true:
--- Quote ---Of course, your own firepower also increases, but there's just one of you and many of them. Finding good cover is now even more important
--- End quote ---
But that's always been an important factor in play, and one of the main reasons less experienced Cogminds go down more easily.
I'd forgotten that Terminators also have three weapons, though, which is something I'll want to address, because three-weapon hostiles are going to be a bit too powerful under this system. Behemoths, on the other hand, I think are fine with a bit of a boost, because they've been fairly weak overall, and aren't incredibly common.
--- Quote ---Armor isn't much better. It's heavy, hot, rare, and churns like crazy. Most of the pieces you find are made of recycled paper.
--- End quote ---
This has somewhat changed, because before Alpha 5 enemy criticals were doing double damage to your armor, which could rip it up pretty quickly when fighting some of the more dangerous yet still common hostiles (Hunters, Programmers).
--- Quote ---3x slots for 300 total integrity?
--- End quote ---
That's an extreme case! There's only one such part--Reactive Heavy Armor, which makes all of your parts nearly half-immune to the most common form of damage in the game! With that many slots it should possibly either be better or have its slot count reduced. Slot space is a very valuable stat, after all, though such a change might require expanding one of its other drawbacks.
A large part of the reason you're able to sustain your recent builds is that propulsion had its integrity vastly increased in an earlier alpha, somewhat destabilizing the original balance because you can effectively use it as free armor. (Armor used to be without question the sole best way to increase your overall resilience.)
Possible solutions:
* Inactive propulsion does count towards your mass total. This is something I've been avoiding from the beginning because it would make everything a bit too complex for the player.
* Reduce coverage of inactive propulsion to 0.
I like the rundown and your tank pic :D
Decker:
Looking back at what I wrote, I see that I could've been more diplomatic in my wording. I apologize for that.
--- Quote ---I disagree on many points, though, even your ordered list of important combat variables.
--- End quote ---
I'll go out on a limb here and say that we're looking at the game from two opposite viewpoints. Yours is the optimistic viewpoint. You don't care about mobility and inventory so much because you're good enough to reliably choose the terms of engagement and find the exit before running out of time. Then large volleys make total sense. If you do have to make a stand, it's best to take down the enemy as fast as possible.
I think I finally understand the logic behind the combat utilities. They're not meant to carry you through hell, they're meant to make you more effective in a limited engagement under favorable conditions. Then, the incoming firepower is limited, so your utilities and armor last a long time.
My own approach to combat is pessimistic. I'm a good strategist but a sloppy player. I play too fast, make mistakes. Thus my build is designed to cope when things have gone south. Mobility helps when I get unexpectedly surrounded. High inventory helps when I'm forced to make a stand on a bad spot.
The true aim of the build is to survive on alert level 4-5. I often play for score and intentionally go and stir up trouble. Also, the alert level skyrockets when I can't find the exit and I'm forced to stay on a floor for a long time. My sorted combat variables are specific to the high alert level scenario.
1) Dash to cover when spotting incoming ARCs, explore frantically when there's a lull.
2) The enemy becomes the main supply source. The churn rates must be compatible with that.
3) The supply situation is chaotic. High reserves help to survive a dry spell.
4) The core and the parts must absorb an intense amount of incoming damage. Brittle parts won't do.
5) I'll eventually die if I don't find the exit soon.
6) I must take down enemies as fast as possible. Large volleys obviously help, alas they're not compatible with the requirements above.
That's why I don't think much of the combat utilities and armor. They're long gone when I most need them.
--- Quote ---Possible solutions:
* Inactive propulsion does count towards your mass total. This is something I've been avoiding from the beginning because it would make everything a bit too complex for the player.
* Reduce coverage of inactive propulsion to 0.
--- End quote ---
[Significant abuse of game mechanics detected! Programmer dispatched.]
Which problem are you trying to solve here? The free armor part or the high mobility part?
With the second solution, my hover units are invulnerable when I make a stand. I think that would actually work in my favor. I hate running out of hover units (and storage parts).
The first solution would definitely force me on the slow path. I don't know if it would really help with the free armor part, though. I'd just cover myself with legs.
Personally I hope that the mobile combat bot remains an option. It does already require many sacrifices.
Kyzrati:
--- Quote ---I'll go out on a limb here and say that we're looking at the game from two opposite viewpoints. Yours is the optimistic viewpoint. You don't care about mobility and inventory so much because you're good enough to reliably choose the terms of engagement and find the exit before running out of time. Then large volleys make total sense. If you do have to make a stand, it's best to take down the enemy as fast as possible.
I think I finally understand the logic behind the combat utilities. They're not meant to carry you through hell, they're meant to make you more effective in a limited engagement under favorable conditions. Then, the incoming firepower is limited, so your utilities and armor last a long time.
My own approach to combat is pessimistic. I'm a good strategist but a sloppy player. I play too fast, make mistakes. Thus my build is designed to cope when things have gone south. Mobility helps when I get unexpectedly surrounded. High inventory helps when I'm forced to make a stand on a bad spot.
--- End quote ---
That sounds like a very good assessment. I was mostly reacting to the fact that it sounded like you weren't leaving any leeway for these other strategies, which do work, just not necessarily for you the way you like to play :P
I like the idea of stirring up trouble, but by comparison your desire to survive on maximum alert level is quite a lofty goal and I can see why you'd have to try to find every way possible to optimize a build for doing that!
--- Quote from: Decker on December 19, 2015, 08:28:44 AM ---
--- Quote ---Possible solutions:
* Inactive propulsion does count towards your mass total. This is something I've been avoiding from the beginning because it would make everything a bit too complex for the player.
* Reduce coverage of inactive propulsion to 0.
--- End quote ---
[Significant abuse of game mechanics detected! Programmer dispatched.]
--- End quote ---
He's here! He's here!
--- Quote from: Decker on December 19, 2015, 08:28:44 AM ---Which problem are you trying to solve here? The free armor part or the high mobility part?
--- End quote ---
Free armor. I never really liked that aspect of the system, and as mentioned it originally wasn't a problem when legs and treads had much lower integrity--you'd still prefer having armor to protect them.
I'll admit I've carried treads around as makeshift armor before, and I thought it was a cheap exploitative tactic, but it wasn't such a big deal in small numbers and I liked the versatility that provides in terms of options to quickly switch between forms of propulsion when you're carrying multiple types.
It would be unfortunate to lose that flexibility.
I can see how a coverage change could even work in your favor here.
The mass-based solution is the more extreme one, but I dislike it from a player convenience perspective, because then activating or deactivating a single propulsion part changes not one number, but two (both mass and support), and then you have issues like temporarily disabled propulsion suddenly causing drag (which is an interesting challenge in itself, but could make some situations a lot more deadly).
--- Quote from: Decker on December 19, 2015, 08:28:44 AM ---Personally I hope that the mobile combat bot remains an option. It does already require many sacrifices.
--- End quote ---
I do see the sacrifices and won't do anything about this just yet. Free armor from so many treads is the main thing I don't like. (The more I look at it it's an interesting strategy! I wonder how many people would want to play this way, actually, besides you :P)
Note there will be a propulsion overhaul at some point (I'm thinking Alpha 6), and I'll take this into account when the time comes. Probably within the next week I'll start looking at all this.
Shobalk:
My Decker run begins!
Follow along as I try my hand at Decker's mobile combatant Cogmind. I'll be talking though strategy, crying a lot, and enjoying one of my favorite games.
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