Grid Sage Forums

Cogmind => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kyzrati on April 26, 2016, 08:50:29 PM

Title: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on April 26, 2016, 08:50:29 PM
Use this thread for general feedback and discussion about the most recent release, if you want to talk about something that you don't feel warrants a dedicated thread.

This is the open spoiler version, for discussions where you plan to talk about spoilery content and don't want to bother with spoiler tagging. Do not read this thread if you want to avoid spoilers! For non-spoiler discussion, feel free to use the non-spoiler discussion thread here (http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=457.0).

Alpha 8 release notes and changelog (http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=456.0).
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 09:21:01 AM
I haven't had the opportunity to play past the single run that I did before. I wish I looked at the changelog before trying to blow through that door in Zion. The natives weren't very happy with my behaviour and got myselves kicked out. Died in the prox caves. Shame. It was shaping up to be a good run too. Also, I think Zion could benefit from a little bit of background music. It is one of the very few areas where you are just chilling out. I am thinking something along the lines of the music that plays in UNACTO-HQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBzDv24IOYQ&ab_channel=TheFabulousTroupe) in deus-ex. I haven't found out any of the cool stuff yet. Will report back later.

I also think I know how you turned research into a warzone :). Let's see whether I am right.

p.s: Also, do the changes to the blast doors imply that I can't crit through the prison door in Extension and the mainframe doors in Cetus?

Edit : Feature request: Would it be possible to include a pull up window which contains only dialogue with pwds (or even just the pwds with a brief description)?. I can see things getting annoying if I have to scroll through the log to find passwords.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 07:45:13 PM
Just had a really good run.

Alpha 8 thoughts:

i) I liked the molecular deconstructor. Is this the only weapon in the game which does damage over time? Really fun to play with. A really good anti-hunter tool, I think.
ii) Zion is cool. I love the "vendor" who fixes you up. Also, lol at storm laser. Also, learnt a new trojan. I already knew about most of the "tips". But, I can see this being very useful for new players. If they can make it there, that is :p.
iii) Met O8 in a previous run. Didn't get the chance to use the code that he gave me.
iv) Met Zhirov in upper caves. I think I understand the lore lot better now. The alien artifacts were cool. I assume you can't further the plot with Zhirov before section 7 is open.
v) I also like the change to Samaritans. They are now a reliable source of treads and neutrino cores.
vi) I found the signal disruptor (edit: not signal disruptor, it's self-destruct interrupter :p) in Zion. That is very useful. Especially if you find a lone behemoth and you want to do some shopping...

I was very close to winning this run. I started off with a combat build and dived into every branch to see if I can find something new. I think I dove into caves in every single factory floor. The upper proxmity caves wrecked me. But, I found decent flight equipment in research and switched to stealth. Found the exit in -3 after running around for a while. Got lucky in -2 and the exit was right there. Access was tragic. I found a energy cycler early on and blew it up. Then spent rest of the time running around looking for the exit. Ran into a bunch of swarmers and that was it.

I am probably done with Alpha 8 for a while. Will try and get a speed win before Alpha 9 though.

Spoiler: scoresheet/17234 (click to show/hide)

edit : The score sheet says that I had 135pc of my health when I exited -3. Bug?
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on April 27, 2016, 10:00:53 PM
Hehe, you got on the wrong side of the Zionites? Surprised that you still managed to make it out alive that first time :)

Quote from: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 09:21:01 AM
Also, I think Zion could benefit from a little bit of background music. It is one of the very few areas where you are just chilling out. I am thinking something along the lines of the music that plays in UNACTO-HQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBzDv24IOYQ&ab_channel=TheFabulousTroupe) in deus-ex.
Yeah, eventually all areas of the game will have some sort of continuous ambient or music going on--this time I just added a sample for the caves since I had it handy.

Quote from: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 09:21:01 AM
p.s: Also, do the changes to the blast doors imply that I can't crit through the prison door in Extension and the mainframe doors in Cetus?
Correct. I wasn't aware anyone knew about that yet, since it wasn't in the manual or context help, and no one's mentioned it. That was originally a way to get through any locked door, but it wasn't intentional. Those were meant only for the other several methods (there are still at least four now, I think).

Quote from: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 09:21:01 AM
Edit : Feature request: Would it be possible to include a pull up window which contains only dialogue with pwds (or even just the pwds with a brief description)?. I can see things getting annoying if I have to scroll through the log to find passwords.
This is something I've been thinking about in the background, yeah. Waiting until the game is further along before addressing it. For now I just jot the four characters down on scratch paper if it's something I'm likely to use.

Quote from: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 07:45:13 PM
i) I liked the molecular deconstructor. Is this the only weapon in the game which does damage over time? Really fun to play with. A really good anti-hunter tool, I think.
Yep, it's the only such weapon--mentioned in the changelog as the "unique weapon" with different mechanics. Very special, and even useful for more than just taking out robots :D

Quote from: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 07:45:13 PM
ii) Zion is cool. I love the "vendor" who fixes you up. Also, lol at storm laser. Also, learnt a new trojan. I already knew about most of the "tips". But, I can see this being very useful for new players. If they can make it there, that is :p.
I kinda think of it as more advanced tips, anyway, for those who can reach the mid-game but need all the help they can get to tackle the late game. A good bit of it has already been learned by those who hang around on the forums, but new players in the future won't have been through the alpha process :).

You probably haven't seen them all, though, since they're randomly selected from a large pool each time so it would take quite a few runs to get them all (and some are more rare than others). There's tips in there I'm pretty sure no one knows yet.

And for experienced players who do know all the tips, know that the stationary Zionites are the ones that provide some kind of real benefit other than simple text-based knowledge, so those are the one's to talk to if you're just doing a quick run and not looking for lore/tips.

Quote from: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 07:45:13 PM
iv) Met Zhirov in upper caves. I think I understand the lore lot better now. The alien artifacts were cool. I assume you can't further the plot with Zhirov before section 7 is open.
Yeah, can't get further with him yet, though you can meet him elsewhere in 0b10. Only Decker's seen that before, I believe (it's not a guaranteed encounter).

Quote from: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 07:45:13 PM
edit : The score sheet says that I had 135pc of my health when I exited -3. Bug?
I noticed that in my run, too, and interestingly it also happened on -3. Must be some strange new bug. I'll smash it.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 10:17:47 PM
Re Doors : I had always thought that was a feature and not a bug. I imagined the Cogmind blowing up the prison doors and going "Come with if you want to live" in an Austrian accent. (edit : I regularly used this to free prisoners in extension.)

Re Molecular Disruptor : It scales so well late into the game. It might even be useful for speed builds if you can find the space. It is really broken and OP. I like it :). Speaking of broken and OP items, the mini-drone bay is really good. I found it once in access and thought it was a really late game item. Turns out you can get it in factory. It made caves a lot more easier to navigate. Let's see how things turn out once the fabrication changes are in. It might make things a bit too easy.

Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on April 27, 2016, 10:33:20 PM
Quote from: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 10:17:47 PM
I imagined the Cogmind blowing up the prison doors and going "Come with if you want to live" in an Austrian accent. (edit : I regularly used this to free prisoners in extension.)
Hahaha... well, even without any hacking gear whatsoever, you'll generally be able to hack open about half the doors. There is also usually an Energy Cycler around.

On my last run I had no gear and failed to hack O7 out (his door looks different so it's distinguishable), then took out the cycler to free him, but by the time I got back to meet up with him he had lost all his propulsion :'(. Then I was wishing I could hack a Mechanic to restore his propulsion, but had no datajack... Oh well!

Quote from: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 10:17:47 PM
Re Molecular Disruptor : It scales so well late into the game. It might even be useful for speed builds if you can find the space. It is really broken and OP. I like it :).
HA! I had that feeling while making it (and figured it could probably even allow you to break the game in some unforseen way), but there's only one way to get it and it's not guaranteed, so I figured why not. If necessary we can balance it out a bit more later, but it's intended to be nice bonus if you're lucky enough to run across it.

It only has a chance to appear in one of any cave map in the game, and you have to visit that exact map to maybe find it. We'll see how common it really is. I could also lower its chance of being found, since right now it's kinda average compared to other encounters. In any case, fun to play with for now, and honestly there is additional semi-OP stuff on the way :D

Quote from: Sherlockkat on April 27, 2016, 10:17:47 PM
Speaking of broken and OP items, the mini-drone bay is really good. I found it once in access and thought it was a really late game item. Turns out you can get it in factory. It made caves a lot more easier to navigate. Let's see how things turn out once the fabrication changes are in. It might make things a bit too easy.
Yeah, this is why I'm worried about easy fabrication. It's going to throw balance off quite a lot if you can always create the few parts that are obviously extremely useful. We'll see... I've got a new idea regarding that I might throw into the fab discussion thread.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Sherlockkat on April 28, 2016, 11:37:52 AM
Story so far....

Spoiler: Serious Lore Spoilers (click to show/hide)

K, how much of that is correct?
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on April 28, 2016, 09:54:16 PM
Well, you have a lot of the details in there, and some good guesses given what's still missing in the game :)

Come to think of it, I should make a "lore completion" percentage somewhere (hm, no appropriate place for that yet...) that tells whether you've actually read all the records in the game, in case you're missing a vital piece.

Spoiler: Lore talk (click to show/hide)

Your unanswered questions will get answers in time. Next up is Alpha 9 where you can finally meet Warlord.

"Hooligans" would be more descriptive of the so-called "wild derelicts," those with no particular affiliation. The Assembled are something else altogether. In fact, no one knows where they came from at all. Some info is available through MAIN.C's own terminal records.

Thanks for your rundown; nice to see how it's being interpreted at this point! I might add a few bits as necessary to make misinterpretations or gaps in knowledge less likely. (But you've certainly got most of the right impressions so far.)
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Sherlockkat on April 28, 2016, 11:16:18 PM
Ooh. Thanks for the clarification on MAIN.C's broadcast. I must have read those records in the wrong order. It would be nice to have access to the records that you have already read somewhere in the gallery alongside items. Or maybe have a early game branch called library which you need to visit to read all the previously queried records :).

That being said, I love the dark-soulesque approach to lore where you need to be half-good at the game to get the all the story bits. Getting to Zhirov is not easy. It is a very good example of immersion via difficulty. And the story fascinating enough justify it. It is gonna really exciting when the late game branches are open.

Am I correct in assuming that the caves branches are relatively static? (i.e Zion in -7, Data miner in -6, Warlord in -5, and Zhirov in -4)
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on April 28, 2016, 11:42:07 PM
Ah yeah, a place to read them all would be nice, too, akin to the gallery. (Also related: the ability to see stats for everything you have in the gallery, a feature that's on the list but very low priority.) It wouldn't fit in the game world itself, though (as said library), since I don't want to inject meta content (the only current exception to that rule is the static Recycling entry code...).

I'm glad you enjoy the approach to lore--I'm obviously a fan of this method myself, its main drawback being that some players will have a tough time learning everything without spoilers (unless I add in multiple difficulty levels, which I'd prefer not to do). It gets harder and harder for less skilled players to access the latest content, since we're working our way towards the surface. But I'll come back and add some new content to earlier branches later, plus we do have some occasional new mechanics available to all.

The cave branches are only partially static. Zion/Data are -7 or -6, Warlord/Zhirov are -5 or -4. Most branches work that way (ex: Storage, which is anywhere from -9 to -7). In fact, there are almost no branches that always appear at the exact same depth every run. This is why if you really want to target a particular branch, you'll have to try to figure out where it is in advance. But all branches provide some meaningful benefits, so wandering randomly is fine, too :P
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Shobalk on April 29, 2016, 10:03:41 PM
The inaugural Alpha 8 run has ended, so I can visit this thread.

Argh!! ;D

Exhibit A:
(https://i.imgur.com/tPel4WC.png?1)

Exhibit B:
(https://i.imgur.com/jJgRA4k.png?1)

How do you get out?  The terminal was a 5% hack.  On the behemoth side, I couldn't shoot through.

I made it to Zhirov and found some new cave content.  I'm loving the story, like Sherlockkat.  I can't wait to read some more. 
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Sherlockkat on April 29, 2016, 10:33:16 PM
Oh wow, that's nice shobalk. You almost had it. If you are hacky build, you hack the temrinal. If not, there is this blue machine called energy cyclers stewn all across access. You can find it behind a double door (looks like ++ ). Blow it up and it opens all the doors. Or you can just shoot through the behemoths. YOu need a lot of fire power to blow through those reinforced walls though.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on April 29, 2016, 10:41:49 PM
Close, indeed! :)

You don't necessarily need a lot of firepower, since you can crit the doors open (kinetic guns are an option, too). And even if you're unarmed, you can stand next to the doors and hope that Behemoths and Hunters miss, thereby blowing a hole for you. But yeah the approach on that side is for combat-minded Cogmind.

There are several other ways, too; Energy Cyclers are pretty reliable, but can be dangerous because they respond with patrol dispatches ;)
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Decker on May 01, 2016, 09:39:16 AM
Quote
You don't necessarily need a lot of firepower, since you can crit the doors open (kinetic guns are an option, too). And even if you're unarmed, you can stand next to the doors and hope that Behemoths and Hunters miss, thereby blowing a hole for you. But yeah the approach on that side is for combat-minded Cogmind.

So that's what had happened when I was shooting at those doors and punched a hole. A critical hit!

On an unrelated note, I am now the proud owner of a self-destruct interrupter. Since I have no intention of self-destructing and can't figure out what's it for, maybe I should just drop them.

I like Zion, and specially its mechanic that just repaired all my items. Would be cool if it worked for your inventory, too. Next time I'll part swap. The long-range scanner part is very good, even better than the long-range sensor.

Purging corruption on entry is a very good idea. I had just dropped my weapons before entering.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Sherlockkat on May 01, 2016, 10:53:40 AM
Quote from: Decker on May 01, 2016, 09:39:16 AM
On an unrelated note, I am now the proud owner of a self-destruct interrupter. Since I have no intention of self-destructing and can't figure out what's it for, maybe I should just drop them.

It is a really useful item. Drop it on the floor before you get into combat in caves. It stops the enemy parts from disintegrating.

@K : It's official. The new drone bays are really powerful, especially at low security levels. I found the Mapping Drone Bay. It was a single slot item with a mass of 3!! That's amazing. It helped me get through both research levels painlessly. All I would do is release a single drone and it would reveal room contents,  secret doors, enemy patrols and with a little luck, the exit. I didn't even use them to map the area :).  They are also amazing distraction. I found a couple of regular drone bays in research. I didn't want to carry them around. So, I just equipped them and unleashed around 8 drones. Half the research floor was chasing them around like bunch of idiots while I waltzed my way to the exit :). I would have cleared access if I hadn't been an moron and tried on prototype items which promptly disabled my field prop array and my sensor array handicapping me severely. As it happened, I died. Horribly.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 01, 2016, 07:32:12 PM
Quote from: Decker on May 01, 2016, 09:39:16 AM
On an unrelated note, I am now the proud owner of a self-destruct interrupter. Since I have no intention of self-destructing and can't figure out what's it for, maybe I should just drop them.
Yeah, there's an encounter in Zion that explains what they do if you haven't figured it out by then. There's also Sherlockkat :)

Quote from: Decker on May 01, 2016, 09:39:16 AM
I like Zion, and specially its mechanic that just repaired all my items. Would be cool if it worked for your inventory, too. Next time I'll part swap. The long-range scanner part is very good, even better than the long-range sensor.
Little too good if it worked on your inventory. Especially your inventory, which as we all know is generally huge.

That's why I had him not repair you immediately, so you'd have a chance to attach what you want.

Quote from: Decker on May 01, 2016, 09:39:16 AM
Purging corruption on entry is a very good idea. I had just dropped my weapons before entering.
I did that since it's both cool and makes sense lore-wise, but just as importantly so you wouldn't have situations like what happened to you when you first met the Data Miner ;).

@Sherlockkat: Yeah, I'll have to do something about that. Drones were already pretty good, and I felt like adding more (there are several other kinds, too), but they should probably be made rare/special for balance purposes. That or I was thinking perhaps they need a mechanics adjustment of some sort. Any ideas? (I've also been thinking about them and other parts in the context of a newer fabrication system under which you could theoretically have easier access to unbalancing parts...)

Amusingly you still bit the dust :P
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Decker on May 01, 2016, 08:05:17 PM
I have a question about the score computation.

Currently the best way to increase the score is to destroy machinery. Robots, prototypes, artifacts aren't worth much. Destroying machines increase the alert level, so ideally one wants to destroy machines with the best score/alert ratio. However, there is no way to determine what either of those values are for a machine. Maybe a 'value' field could be added to the machine stat window?

I cheated and save scummed to get some numbers. Destroying a terminal got me a score increase of 25, and the same for a matter pump or something like that. Does this number vary for other machines? I'm curious but there is a limit to the amount of pain I'm willing to go through to find out ;)

 
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 01, 2016, 08:35:46 PM
Ah Decker, always looking for ways to squeeze out some extra points :P

Almost every machine in the game is worth 25--there are only three special machines (Garrison-related) that are exceptions to that. The score value, like many other score values in the game, are directly proportional to the amount of alert level increase caused by disabling them.

While logically speaking machines should probably be valued differently, it wasn't planned and hasn't yet been considered. I do want to examine the entire scoring system once the world is complete, but it's not high priority right now.

Keeping all machines valued the same simplifies the system and means we don't need to worry about displaying their relative value.

Adding an explicit "value" to a machine would also tend to encourage their destruction for score purposes, when that's not really a primary goal of the game. It exists as a way to allow collateral damage to have an impact on the ecosystem.

But yeah some Cogminds are apparently all about being really, really destructive :P

Most robots are valued more than machines, and realize that destroying robots adds to two performance indicators, both Robots Destroyed (a flat per-robot value) and Value Destroyed (which is where most of the reward comes in, different for each robot and usually ranging from 1-99). The true value of a standard robot is shown in its variant number, until you start getting into prototypes. Ever met a Combat Programmer? They're worth 200 each :)
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Decker on May 01, 2016, 10:33:44 PM
Quote
Almost every machine in the game is worth 25--there are only three special machines (Garrison-related) that are exceptions to that. The score value, like many other score values in the game, are directly proportional to the amount of alert level increase caused by disabling them.

Keeping all machines valued the same simplifies the system and means we don't need to worry about displaying their relative value.

Great -- I suspected the value was related to the alert level. This makes sense: the AI is more pissed when destroying high-value targets. And since the value is fixed, I agree there is no need for an indicator.

Quote
Most robots are valued more than machines, and realize that destroying robots adds to two performance indicators, both Robots Destroyed (a flat per-robot value) and Value Destroyed (which is where most of the reward comes in, different for each robot and usually ranging from 1-99)

Aha! This is not obvious from the way the game stats are presented. Now I have one more reason to kill the disarmed combat robots!


I went back to Data Miner. One thing I notice is that while the lore is very nice, the game rewards the player if they go through every terminal/robot and download every item, each time they get there. This could become a chore for a big map like Zion.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 01, 2016, 11:53:33 PM
Quote from: Decker on May 01, 2016, 10:33:44 PM
I went back to Data Miner. One thing I notice is that while the lore is very nice, the game rewards the player if they go through every terminal/robot and download every item, each time they get there. This could become a chore for a big map like Zion.
In Data Miner it's just a couple terminals that have useful non-lore stuff, and they're always in the same place, so that's easy enough.

In Zion I was a bit worried about that, so to at least somewhat mitigate the effect all stationary inhabitants are those which provide you with benefits. If they're moving around they're purely for lore purposes and experienced players can ignore them (but the lore is random and some of it doesn't appear so often, so it can take a while to find it all--whether you have done so will be easier to discern with some kind of future meta record system).

So you basically just go around in a circle and hit anything that's not moving.

There are also some alternative encounters that could be used to create a potential drawback to hanging around in Zion too long. I didn't yet implement some of the more involved/special cave and Zion encounters. That said, I kinda like the idea that there's a place in the world where you're not running for your life, it just leads to replayability vs. optimal play dilemmas like this in a roguelike...

(@Sherlockkat: I moved the drone+fabricator post over to that thread (http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=449.0) for continued discussion.)
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Happylisk on May 13, 2016, 07:21:21 AM
Has anyone killed Dataminer?  What happens when you do that?
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Sherlockkat on May 13, 2016, 09:48:00 AM
I don't know whether you can kill the dataminer. You probably can. But, you need enough fire power to kill him in one shot. Coz that's all you are going to get. I have attempted to kill the dataminer. He escapes through a trap door and sets his fancy prototype guards on you.


You can kill the data miner in a single shot. I katana-sliced him to death. He drops his hackware, system-mapper. It gives you +30 to hack!!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

edit : Updated with new info from my recent run.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Shobalk on May 27, 2016, 11:58:06 PM
Quote from: Sherlockkat on May 13, 2016, 09:48:00 AM
You can kill the data miner in a single shot. I katana-sliced him to death. He drops his hackware, system-mapper. It gives you +30 to hack!!
That is so awesome :)
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: biomatter on May 28, 2016, 10:22:21 AM
Yay, I made it to the Data Miner myself! I'm happy, 'cause this was my first try back at stealth running in like, a year. I've been showing this game to a friend, and although they have slowly been gaining competence at combat running, I wanted to show them that there are other options out there. If only all my runs could divine so much knowledge, haha.

I've already transcripted everything from Data Miner to the wiki. A few things are unclear to me though, and will require me to try a few times... or just ask you guys lol. Are the schematics terminals randomized? I mean, if they are, they probably have some reasonable bounds, but I'm not sure if they are static. Also, what happens when you fail to kill the Data Miner? I had read a little about him in this thread and so I had a go at him, and my Ripper downed him in one hit. After escaping past those damnable Enhanced Grunts, I took a breather. My mind will be blown if I really just got the location of every staircase henceforth.

You mentioned that Lower Caves connect to both the lower Factory floors. Does this mean I can hit, say, Zion from Factory -7, and then Data Miner from -6? And that in a future run, it might be reversed?

Also, there are two Research branches, right? I think Testing and Quarantine, though in retrospect I can't find hard data on Quarantine. Do they exist / can be accessed?

I need data on Zhirov, Perun, and Svarog, too... I mean, I need someone to try hitting them and telling me what happens, haha. Adv. Scans of them would be neat, too. I want to know what Zhirov is holding... Oh, also, Zhirov's logs point to a Hidden Lab off of Armory - do we know what this is?

I only play a little every day, so it might be another few days or so before I come across noteworthy information, but I'll do a write-up on how I interpret everything so far like you did, Sherlockkat. I guess my next stop should be Archives. Sounds like an interesting place :D What's in Hub_04(d)?
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:01:40 AM
As a break from studying for exams, I played my first game in months (and since Alpha 6). Started out normally, but then I found Imp Flight Units on -9...

So at the start of -8 I started recording and managed to win, pretty smoothly too. No branch monkey business mind you, just a straightforward game.

I'm going to bed while it uploads to youtube, and it should end up on https://youtu.be/SzLc5l15RpA (https://youtu.be/SzLc5l15RpA), and if for some reason that doesn't work, check my youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGc17ErUCrMvV46rOiOmyWA) in about one hour from now.

Really like the change to the surface shell btw. Also, I wasn't able to detect hunters with my adv. signal interpreter. Nerf or bug?

Code: [Select]
Cogmind - Alpha 8

Name: zzxc

---[ ESCAPED! ]---

 Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9)             4500
Robots Destroyed (22)      110
Value Destroyed (621)      621
Prototype IDs (9)          180
Alien Tech Identified (0)  0
Bonus (8025)               8025
              TOTAL SCORE: 13436

 Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity             1600/1600
Matter                     157/300
Energy                     38/420
System Corruption          0%
Temperature                Warning (305)
Location                   Surface

 Parts
-------
Power (3)
  Angular Momentum Engine
  Light Particle Reactor
  Light Quantum Reactor
Propulsion (6)
  Improved Flight Unit
  Improved Flight Unit
  Improved Flight Unit
  Impulse Thruster Array
  Field Propulsion Drive
Utility (14)
  Hacking Suite
  Advanced Signal Interpreter
  System Mapper
  Layered Medium Armor Plating
  Long-range Sensor Array
  Advanced Weight Redist. System
  Advanced Terrain Scanner
  System Shield
  Power Amplifier
  Reflective Medium Armor
  Advanced Terrain Scan Processor
  Advanced Terrain Scan Processor
  Advanced ECM Suite
Weapon (2)

 Inventory
-----------
Improved Q-Thruster
Micro-nuke Launcher
Advanced Sensor Array
Linear Accelerator

 Peak State
------------
Power
  Angular Momentum Engine
  Light Particle Reactor
  Light Quantum Reactor
Propulsion
  Improved Flight Unit
  Improved Flight Unit
  Improved Flight Unit
  Impulse Thruster Array
  Field Propulsion Drive
Utility
  Hacking Suite
  Advanced Signal Interpreter
  System Mapper
  Layered Medium Armor Plating
  Long-range Sensor Array
  Advanced Weight Redist. System
  Advanced Terrain Scanner
  System Shield
  Power Amplifier
  Reflective Medium Armor
  Advanced Terrain Scan Processor
  Advanced Terrain Scan Processor
  Advanced ECM Suite
Weapon
[Rating: 107]

 Favorites
-----------
Power                      Fission Core
  Engine                   Improved Ion Engine
  Power Core               Fission Core
  Reactor                  Light Particle Reactor
Propulsion                 Improved Flight Unit
  Treads                   Light Treads
  Leg                      Aluminum Leg
  Flight Unit              Improved Flight Unit
Utility                    Hacking Suite
  Device                   Long-range Sensor Array
  Storage                  Medium Storage Unit
  Processor                Advanced Signal Interpreter
  Hackware                 Hacking Suite
  Protection               Layered Medium Armor Plating
Weapon                     Improved Datajack
  Energy Gun               Small Laser
  Ballistic Gun            Heavy Assault Rifle
  Launcher                 Mini Grenade Launcher
  Slashing Weapon          Plasma Sword
  Special Melee Weapon     Improved Datajack

 Stats
-------
Bonus Breakdown            8025
  Win                      3000
  Fast Win                 5025
Classes Destroyed          7
  Worker                   1
  Hauler                   3
  Recycler                 4
  Operator                 3
  Swarmer                  3
  Grunt                    6
  Sentry                   2
NPCs Destroyed             0
Best Kill Streak           3
  Combat Bots Only         3
Matter Collected           1196
  Salvage Created          1096
Parts Attached             89
  Power                    15
  Propulsion               16
  Utility                  38
  Weapon                   20
Parts Lost                 7
  Power                    0
  Propulsion               2
  Utility                  3
  Weapon                   2
Average Slot Usage (%)     91
  Naked Turns              2
Spaces Moved               5277
  Fastest Speed (%)        588
  Average Speed (%)        458
  Slowest Speed (%)        66
  Overloaded Moves         0
  Propulsion Burnouts      0
  Targets Rammed           0
  Cave-ins Triggered       1
  Teleports                0
Heaviest Build             63
  Greatest Overweight (x)  13
  Average Overweight (x)   1
Largest Inventory          14
  Most Items Carried       8
  Average Items Carried    4
Core Damage Taken          279
Average Core Remaining (%) 94
  Depth 10 Exit            72
  Depth 9 Exit             88
  Depth 8 Exit             100
  Depth 7 Exit             100
  Depth 6 Exit             91
  Depth 5 Exit             100
  Depth 4 Exit             100
  Depth 3 Exit             93
  Depth 2 Exit             100
  Depth 1 Exit             100
Volleys Fired              70
  Largest                  2
  Hottest                  96
Shots Fired                118
  Gun                      96
  Cannon                   0
  Launcher                 22
  Special                  0
  Kinetic                  16
  Thermal                  80
  Explosive                22
  Electromagnetic          0
Shots Hit Robots           78
  Core Hits                27
Overload Shots             0
  Energy Bleed             0
  Heat Surge               0
  Short Circuit            0
  Meltdown                 0
Melee Attacks              35
  Impact                   0
  Slashing                 0
  Piercing                 0
Damage Inflicted           770
  Projectiles              623
  Explosions               147
  Melee                    0
  Ramming                  0
  Kinetic                  186
  Thermal                  437
  Explosive                147
  Electromagnetic          0
  Impact                   0
  Slashing                 0
  Piercing                 0
Self-Inflicted Damage      132
  Shots                    7
  Rammed                   0
Highest Temperature        301
  Average Temperature      68
  Shutdowns                0
  Energy Bleed             1
  Interference             7
  Matter Decay             1
  Short Circuit            0
  Damage (minor)           0
  Damage (major)           0
  Damage (core)            0
Highest Corruption         3
  Average Corruption       1
  Message Errors           1
  Parts Rejected           0
  Data loss (map)          0
  Data loss (database)     0
  Misfires                 0
  Misdirections            0
  Targeting Errors         0
  Weapon Failures          0
  Depth 3 End              3
Haulers Intercepted        3
Robots Corrupted           0
Robots Melted              0
Power Chain Reactions      0
Tactical Retreats          11
Communications Jammed      0
Parts Field Recycled       0
  Retrieved Matter         0
Parts Merge Repaired       0
Drone Launches             2
  Drone Recoveries         0
Derelicts Assembled        0
Traps Triggered            0
  Indirectly               0
Trap Hack Attempts         2
  Triggered                0
  Disarmed                 0
  Reprogrammed             1
  Reused                   0
Data Cores Recovered       3
  Used                     3
Machines Hacked            40
  Terminals                31
  Fabricators              3
  Repair Stations          0
  Recycling Units          2
  Scanalyzers              1
  Garrison Access          3
Total Hacks                107
  Successful               51
  Failed                   56
  Catastrophic             15
  Database Lockouts        0
  Manual                   34
  Unauthorized             9
  Terminals                88
  Fabricators              5
  Repair Stations          0
  Recycling Units          5
  Scanalyzers              6
  Garrison Access          3
Terminal Hacks             37
  Record                   0
  Part Schematic           1
  Robot Schematic          0
  Robot Analysis           1
  Prototype ID Bank        1
  Open Door                1
  Level Access Points      6
  Branch Access Points     1
  Emergency Access Points  4
  Machine Index            0
  Terminal Index           2
  Fabricator Index         0
  Repair Station Index     0
  Recycling Unit Index     0
  Scanalyzer Index         0
  Garrison Index           0
  Alert Level              1
  Unreport Threat          1
  Locate Traps             6
  Disarm Traps             0
  Reprogram Traps          0
  Dispatch Records         0
  Maintenance Status       0
  Security Status          0
  Surveillance Status      0
  Patrol Status            2
  Transport Status         0
  Investigation Status     0
  Extermination Status     0
  Reinforcement Status     0
  Assault Status           0
  Garrison Status          0
  Intercept Status         0
  Recall Investigation     0
  Recall Extermination     0
  Recall Reinforcements    0
  Recall Assault           0
  Hauler Manifests         1
  Registered Components    3
  Registered Prototypes    0
  Zone Layout              5
  Sector Layout            0
  Machine Controls         1
Hacking Detections         35
  Full Trace Events        7
  Feedback Events          0
  Feedback Corruption      0
  Feedback Part Disabled   0
  Feedback Blocked         0
Trojans Installed          3
  Terminals                3
  Fabricators              0
  Repair Stations          0
  Recycling Units          0
  Scanalyzers              0
  Garrison Access          0
Fabricators Overloaded     0
Garrisons Disabled         2
Garrisons Compromised      0
Robot Schematics Acquired  0
  Robots Built             0
  Total Robot Build Rating 0
  Robot Fabrication Matter 0
  Robot Fabrication Time   0
Part Schematics Acquired   3
  Parts Built              0
  Total Part Build Rating  0
  Part Fabrication Matter  0
  Part Fabrication Time    0
Parts Repaired             0
  Part Repair Time         0
Parts Recycled             0
  Recycled Matter          0
  Retrieved Matter         0
  Retrieved Components     0
Parts Scanalyzed           3
  Part Schematics Acquired 2
  Parts Damaged            0
Robot Analysis Total       1
Robots Rewired             0
Robots Hacked              0
  Non-combat               8
  Combat                   0
  Parse                    0
  Link                     0
  Rebooted                 0
  Overloaded               8
  Assimilated              0
  Manual                   0
  Secondary                0
Robot Hack Failures        4
Allies Hacked              0
Hacks Repelled             0
Total Allies               2
  Largest Group            2
  Highest-Rated Group      10
  Highest-Rated Ally       5
Total Orders               2
  STAY                     0
  GOTO                     0
  ROAM                     0
  FOLLOW                   0
  GUARD                    0
  AID                      0
  BUILD                    0
  TUNNEL                   0
  DROP                     0
  PICKUP                   0
  COLLECT                  0
  EXPLORE                  2
  RETURN                   0
Terraforming Orders        0
  Walls Built              0
  Walls Tunneled           0
Ally Attacks               0
  Total Damage             0
  Kills                    0
Allies Corrupted           0
Allies Melted              0
Peak Influence             340
  Average Influence        45
  Final Influence          88
Maximum Alert Level        1
  Low Security (%)         92
  Level 1                  7
  Level 2                  0
  Level 3                  0
  Level 4                  0
  Level 5                  0
Squads Dispatched          13
  Investigation            8
  Extermination            2
  Reinforcement            3
  Assault                  0
  Garrison                 0
  Intercept                0
Derelict Logs Recovered    0
Exploration Rate (%)       16
  Regions Visited          13
  Pre-discovered Areas     0
Garrisons Visited          0
  Relays Disabled          0
  Generators Disabled      0
Network Hubs Disabled      0
Actions Taken              6862
Turns Passed               3324
  Depth 11                 57
  Depth 10                 291
  Depth 9                  287
  Depth 8                  121
  Depth 7                  356
  Depth 6                  564
  Depth 5                  505
  Depth 4                  210
  Depth 3                  435
  Depth 2                  223
  Depth 1                  275
  Scrapyard                57
  Materials                699
  Factory                  1505
  Research                 658
  Access                   275
  Waste                    130

 Prototype IDs
---------------
Improved Flight Unit
Improved Field Propulsion Drive
Improved Medium Laser
Advanced Beam Rifle
Plasma Sword
Experimental Power Shielding
Experimental Targeting Computer
System Mapper
Improved Fusion Compressor

 Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None

 Route
-------
-11/Scrapyard
-10/Materials
-9/Materials
-8/Materials
-7/Factory
-6/Factory
-6/Waste
-6/Factory
-5/Factory
-4/Factory
-3/Research
-2/Research
-1/Access
Surface

 Game
------
Seed: 1464441975
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 142 min
Sessions: 1
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 93
ASCII: 1
Keyboard: 1
Movement: Numpad
Fullscreen: 1
Font: 18/Terminus
Map View: 76x50
FOV Handling: Instant


X=9972554094351522462555530593
592625333435566324426222555265
229224292520462269539992646299
322223444426669506290509296255
336664242222235452292662652223
232965955202323622252222232252
222222262259992352222222252529
692252222226252222992252266222
222652296552222222252922292265
522222953545562556664222200362
264292625659235623622552922229
252255292636222222295622295692
245262666522296396634252223569
496652226222256926239204529924
005540996255522596032253295290
422562292220902520069323596564
262254422322226929559662629264
545024095425566295463365623225
226292265593542223229326223625
222525454636526222922225250594
596255999222029
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Sherlockkat on May 28, 2016, 12:21:41 PM
@biomatter:
Quote
Also, what happens when you fail to kill the Data Miner? I had read a little about him in this thread and so I had a go at him, and my Ripper downed him in one hit. After escaping past those damnable Enhanced Grunts, I took a breather. My mind will be blown if I really just got the location of every staircase henceforth.

If you fail to kill the data-miner, he runs down a escape hatch and sets his grunts on you anyway. You don't get the location of every staircase. You only get the location of every machine. But, in access, I think the entire exit setup with the shell and sealed door counts as a machine or something. Because, it shows up in the map. I also saw the a terminal + door setup show in the factory. That's the extension. So, I think you download terminal locations and the doors associated with those terminals. I dunno.

Quote
You mentioned that Lower Caves connect to both the lower Factory floors. Does this mean I can hit, say, Zion from Factory -7, and then Data Miner from -6? And that in a future run, it might be reversed?

Yup. That's exactly what I meant. K mentioned it somewhere in this thread.

Re Research branches and Armory: I have seen locked stairs to Testing and Section 7. Section 7 does not show up when you access(branch) according to Zhirov. I have never seen Quarantine. Armory is a locked branch in factory. It is behind a double door and is guarded by a bunch of sentries.

Re Perun, Svarog and Zhirov: I will swing at them and let you know what happens. Though, as you mentioned, bringing a scan processor along might be the smarter. But, who's got time for that? :) This might not be until Alpha 9 though.

Re Archives: Something is going on there. The terminals are always locked out when I show up. I think there is some plot information that I am missing and K did mention that very few ppl have seen everything that happens that way. Hub_04(d) is interesting. But, I don't think there is any lore there. But you can do/see some pretty cool stuff there.

Looking forward to your interpretation of the lore :). Edit: Actually, I just checked out the wiki and was going through the Zhirov stuff and have started to make some more connections. Especially the bit about Sigix taking the fight below ground and certain "Derelict" adapting alien technology. I believe those self proclaimed derelicts are tinkerers. Wonder whether warlord is being used by the any surviving Sigix in order to overthrow MAIN.C. Man, even the data miner could be in cahoots with the Sigix.

@zxc: Nice win. Where did you get that system-mapper from? Wastes? Man, I should really start getting 3 power slots too. I always go with two power slots and go really greedy on utilities. The result : Late into the game, my build is just this dynamic puzzle and I need to constantly figure out how to keep everything powered.

The adv signal interpeter got nerfed. You need the exp signal interpreter to see the late game hunters. It's the reason I find myself relying on optical arrays more and more.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 28, 2016, 07:14:40 PM
Quote from: Sherlockkat on May 28, 2016, 12:21:41 PM
The adv signal interpeter got nerfed. You need the exp signal interpreter to see the late game hunters. It's the reason I find myself relying on optical arrays more and more.
It wasn't technically a nerf--all the Hunters just got a boost to their sensor cloaking ability, and I added the Experimental version of the interpreter as a way to still detect the late-game Hunters. This was to put all of the Hunters slightly ahead of the interpreter curve, and more importantly make late-game Hunters require a more rare interpreter, one that you can't get from Watchers. The aim was to make the late game a little tougher for speed runners who can otherwise avoid most everything by simply acquiring interpreters from Watchers. Now you can't be so sure :)

Oh, and I was uploading the scores today and noticed zxc was back for a win; nice job ;D
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: zxc on May 28, 2016, 07:19:16 PM
Quote from: Sherlockkat on May 28, 2016, 12:21:41 PM
@zxc: Nice win. Where did you get that system-mapper from? Wastes? Man, I should really start getting 3 power slots too. I always go with two power slots and go really greedy on utilities. The result : Late into the game, my build is just this dynamic puzzle and I need to constantly figure out how to keep everything powered.
3rd power slot wasn't actually being used at the end, but I got it to be on the safe side as I've learnt not to go all-out on utilities these days. My extra slots for propulsion came in very useful (I wanted only 4 for Imp Flight Units). Towards the end I was just having issues with heat as I never seem to find heat sinks or coolers after early factory...

Quote from: Kyzrati on May 28, 2016, 07:14:40 PM
Quote from: Sherlockkat on May 28, 2016, 12:21:41 PM
The adv signal interpeter got nerfed. You need the exp signal interpreter to see the late game hunters. It's the reason I find myself relying on optical arrays more and more.
It wasn't technically a nerf--all the Hunters just got a boost to their sensor cloaking ability, and I added the Experimental version of the interpreter as a way to still detect the late-game Hunters. This was to put all of the Hunters slightly ahead of the interpreter curve, and more importantly make late-game Hunters require a more rare interpreter, one that you can't get from Watchers. The aim was to make the late game a little tougher for speed runners who can otherwise avoid most everything by simply acquiring interpreters from Watchers. Now you can't be so sure :)

Oh, and I was uploading the scores today and noticed zxc was back for a win; nice job ;D

That's too bad about the adv signal interpreter, but it's probably justified. Still, sensors all the way!

Thanks folks.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
Minor requests and points including some that almost certainly aren't worth K's time but I'll list them in case they offer ideas.

* One-time hacks on terminals like Locate Traps should gray out if you complete the hack, exit the terminal and re-open it (likewise if you take an operator's key and discover where the traps are).
* After discovering a secret hack through lore like trojans, maybe list that hack in all terminals with that player profile afterwards.
* Operators can be abused quite thoroughly (see https://youtu.be/SzLc5l15RpA?t=719) but maybe this is OK as it's tactical and not always possible.
* Running using shift probably shouldn't keep going through doors (and ideally should stop at 45 degrees to doorways, machines and wall edges to allow for diagonal movement, and also should stop at items if it doesn't already).
* I can't help but think that there ought to be another way to get to exits with sentries camping on them without fighting them and without doing a weird dance to get them to notice you and walk off the exit.
* The best flight units are still an early-game prototype!
* I swear heat sinks and coolers don't spawn often enough late-game, but it could be the result of a really small sample size.
* I found a weird sentry which was camping beside an exit instead of on top of it (see https://youtu.be/SzLc5l15RpA?t=6501).
* Still getting a noticeable pause when making my first move on a new floor in Factory onwards.
* Recycling machine hacks seem overly difficult for the reward.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 28, 2016, 11:42:54 PM
Thanks for the feedback! Having a list of little stuff to do is good for those extra days shortly before release when I'm mostly in the testing phase so no big features can be added. But the Little Stuff list is already quite long :P

Here we go :D

Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* After discovering a secret hack through lore like trojans, maybe list that hack in all terminals with that player profile afterwards.
This is planned, though not in this way. It will be a separate console you open. It's just low priority right now because the current system works and this will be a lot of work.

Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* Operators can be abused quite thoroughly (see https://youtu.be/SzLc5l15RpA?t=719) but maybe this is OK as it's tactical and not always possible.
Yeah, I wouldn't worry about that yet.

Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* Running using shift probably shouldn't keep going through doors (and ideally should stop at 45 degrees to doorways, machines and wall edges to allow for diagonal movement, and also should stop at items if it doesn't already).
Run movement isn't fully implemented yet, though it got pushed down rather far on the list after the initial implementation. Thanks for bringing it up, since I hadn't yet collected any opinions on what players want it to do (all it said in my notes is to collect opinions :P).

Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* I can't help but think that there ought to be another way to get to exits with sentries camping on them without fighting them and without doing a weird dance to get them to notice you and walk off the exit.
I can think of about 4-5 other methods that already exist :)

Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* The best flight units are still an early-game prototype!
Huh, we'll definitely be fixing that before long then, especially now that fabrication is coming up! It's tough to balance them into the movement system with everything else--not enough room for common vs. prototype flexibility with respect to flying :/

Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* I swear heat sinks and coolers don't spawn often enough late-game, but it could be the result of a really small sample size.
Right. That would be the item distribution trends which involve more and more items as you get closer to the surface, meaning a relative reduction in the chance of finding dissipation-related parts. In the latter half of the game the best way to acquire them is to fight, since as you know most combat robots carry them and tend to drop them by the dozen :P. But then, as a speed runner you'd be trying to avoid those situations...

According to the algorithms and part counts, the chance of an item being a cooling item by floor is... -5: 1.3%, -4: 0.6%, -3: 0.2%, -2: 0%, -1: 0%.

Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* I found a weird sentry which was camping beside an exit instead of on top of it (see https://youtu.be/SzLc5l15RpA?t=6501).
Did it worry you? ;). I can think of one situation where that's possible--sometimes guarding units will permanently relocate themselves if they leave their original position for some reason and come back to find it blocked.

Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* Still getting a noticeable pause when making my first move on a new floor in Factory onwards.
I noticed that a lot in my most recent runs, too! It was definitely gone for a while after I optimized it, and now it's more or less back to what it was. Damn :/. I'll have to look into that again and see what's up... The last optimization isn't guaranteed to always resolve the issue, but it generally helped a lot more frequently than what we're seeing now.

Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* Recycling machine hacks seem overly difficult for the reward.
Maybe. The idea there was that only dedicated hacking builds should be able to benefit from them, and a 30% hacking bonus at a tier 1 Recycling Unit pretty much guarantees that you'll be able to get all the parts inside (50% chance per hack), which isn't too bad. But seeing as you can't control what they are, and they're likely messed up anyway, yeah I'll up the base chances.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: zxc on May 29, 2016, 03:06:24 AM
You skipped my first point. Also, it would be cool to have an X mode (like DCSS) which allows panning around the map with the keyboard without having to hold Alt. This would be faster (you could allow shift + direction to skip many squares) and safer for Windows users (avoids that awkward Alt problem after using alt-tab). On the same train of thought, a mini-map could be cool. OK OK I'll stop now ;D
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 03:21:39 AM
I skipped your first point because it felt like the most minor thing on the list, which incidentally is already planned. It's one of those tiny QoL features that requires a disproportionately large amount of work to full implement and test.

I'll see about adding another map panning mode (we already have three panning methods...), though Alt-Shift already does that, and adding a new method wouldn't solve the Windows Alt problem in all its other forms, so it's still always going to be safest to hit Alt and or Alt-Shift when Alt-Tabbing back to be safe anyway.

A minimap I was thinking about just yesterday, because I'd love to have it if possible, but the only implementation possibilities for that given the technical limitations of the display aren't going to be useful in all cases due to the large size of some maps. I might try to play with the idea some more, but the layout wouldn't be able to show more than a 100x100 area at a time (so only a quarter of a Factory), and there would be zero detail whatsoever--pure layout info in a solid color. Not that great...
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: zxc on May 29, 2016, 03:29:18 AM
Quote from: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 03:21:39 AM
I skipped your first point because it felt like the most minor thing on the list, which incidentally is already planned. It's one of those tiny QoL features that requires a disproportionately large amount of work to full implement and test.
It was the only one missing so it looked like you overlooked it :D. Indeed a lot of these are tiny yet require disproportionate work.

Quote from: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 03:21:39 AM
I'll see about adding another map panning mode (we already have three panning methods...), though Alt-Shift already does that, and adding a new method wouldn't solve the Windows Alt problem in all its other forms, so it's still always going to be safest to hit Alt and or Alt-Shift when Alt-Tabbing back to be safe anyway.
Yeah, I tap alt a bunch of times before using alt to look around, pretty much regardless of whether or not I alt-tabbed recently. I hadn't tried alt-shift-direction because I have learnt not to fool around holding multiple keys, especially since the times when I pan around the map are usually when I'm in major trouble and a wrong move can mean a lot of harm done.

Quote from: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 03:21:39 AM
A minimap I was thinking about just yesterday, because I'd love to have it if possible, but the only implementation possibilities for that given the technical limitations of the display aren't going to be useful in all cases due to the large size of some maps. I might try to play with the idea some more, but the layout wouldn't be able to show more than a 100x100 area at a time (so only a quarter of a Factory), and there would be zero detail whatsoever--pure layout info in a solid color. Not that great...
This was half a joke. I'm surprised you've even considered this! That said, a map of the current level would really give a sense of the massive scale of some of the levels. The sprawling levels are one of my favourite aspects of the game.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 03:36:27 AM
Quote from: zxc on May 29, 2016, 03:29:18 AM
Yeah, I tap alt a bunch of times before using alt to look around, pretty much regardless of whether or not I alt-tabbed recently. I hadn't tried alt-shift-direction because I have learnt not to fool around holding multiple keys, especially since the times when I pan around the map are usually when I'm in major trouble and a wrong move can mean a lot of harm done.
Oh you haven't been using Alt-Shift direction? I always play via pure keyboard and use that a lot. Easy to jump around the map. There is also a new undocumented command, '`', which colors in the entire map area you've discovered, even if outside your FOV. You might find that useful.

Quote from: zxc on May 29, 2016, 03:29:18 AM
This was half a joke. I'm surprised you've even considered this! That said, a map of the current level would really give a sense of the massive scale of some of the levels. The sprawling levels are one of my favourite aspects of the game.
Hehe, I know you were joking, but I was seriously thinking about it just yesterday so I thought I'd throw my thoughts out there, too! I might do it as an experiment for the heck of it. Half the reason I want to do it is because it could appear with a cool animation ;D
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: biomatter on May 29, 2016, 05:57:24 AM
Speaking of animations, the Data Miner level is beautiful. It's so awesome seeing that subtle pulse. Fluff-wise, you could have used that a million other places - power conduits, other data links, etc - but you didn't, and that makes it all the more memorable when you first see it. Less is more! It's so good :D
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 06:16:34 AM
There's code to use that effect anywhere, but it would also be distracting if found on a wider scale. It's nicer to give some areas their own unique feel, however possible with ASCII, and the Data Miner is a little place that is otherwise quiet and empty--perfect opportunity for something like that. It took a long time to get that whole conduit animating just right, though ;)

It takes a lot more time of course, but I do like to go for the "awe players with something found nowhere else" approach whenever I can do it lore-wise (and technically). I had that feeling when creating Zion, for obvious reasons ;D

Quote from: Kyzrati on May 28, 2016, 11:42:54 PM
Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* The best flight units are still an early-game prototype!
Huh, we'll definitely be fixing that before long then, especially now that fabrication is coming up! It's tough to balance them into the movement system with everything else--not enough room for common vs. prototype flexibility with respect to flying :/
So going back to this, I couldn't help but look at it now, and I'm not sure how the Imp. Flight Unit got that support value. It's pretty out of whack with everything, actually, at nearly double support for no extra costs. Oops. I'll go back through all the values and make some adjustments, but that one is definitely getting nerfed.

Edit: Hm, okay I take that back. I can't quite decide how to treat it because unlike other parts, what I did with flight is make it so that it's actually a fully two-tiered system: prototypes vs. common types, where high-rated forms of the latter can't stand up to even low-rated forms of the former in terms of efficiency. (Normal prototypes only average about rating+1 good.)

So there are better prototype flight propulsion outright better than what you were using, you just didn't find them. I did this because you can't get them off enemies, making them difficult to acquire, but with enough of them you could theoretically build a combat-capable flight build. Maybe I should give that up... (Also, that said some higher-tier prototypes do have the problem of fast movement = significant heat and energy cost increases even with a +1 increase on either, so they may be better in some ways, but are not always the most efficient if you want to run extremely light.)

Edit 2: Okay, I just made some rather significant stat changes to flight (and to a lesser extent hover). I'll be interested to see how things have changed for speed runs with Alpha 9!
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: zxc on May 29, 2016, 08:45:23 AM
It's definitely complicated and I certainly haven't looked deeply at the stats of the various flight units available. Late in the game I don't even equip new prototype flight units because I feel like I already have a game winning build and thus it would be taking a risk for very little gain. I'd love to try out all the prototypes but unless I have one of those special items that identifies them, it just isn't worth it unless I'm in a very poor position.

The main reason why I think the Imp Flight Units are the best (certainly the best of the flight units I've seen and used) is because of their energy/heat efficiency for their speed. I pay less attention to support capacity, and my last build would've functioned well enough with half the capacity it had.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 08:56:57 AM
I noticed you were handling low support impressively well in your video. You won't mind that I've reduced all prototype flight mass support, then ;).

Probably the most meaningful change I made though is to reduce the speed modifier from -5 to -3, meaning you'll need more propulsion slots to reach the same speeds.

Also, to resolve the efficiency problem, which I found was otherwise insurmountable given the rough granularity of the system at even the reduced speeds, I completely set all heat and movement costs to 1!

This is a sudden collection of rather big changes, so more tweaks could follow, but let's see how this plays first. If together these changes can solve the original issue (which was kinda ridiculous) while still requiring skilled heat and energy management and keep speed builds fun and challenging, that would be, um, nice.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: zxc on May 29, 2016, 09:07:55 AM
Speed builds are most fun when you don't need to worry about heat, energy and mass support :P

Those are some big changes. No idea what effect they'll have. I've been telling you about flight propulsion efficiency for so long now and so you go ahead with such a hasty balance change  ;D
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 09:14:49 AM
You single-handedly derailed my evening work schedule today :) (Sure I was going to be working on Cogmind, as usual, but not this...)
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: zxc on May 29, 2016, 09:20:05 AM
Goddamn... sorry.

My intention was just to offer some thoughts and get some discussion going. Flight propulsion seems to be very delicate to balance.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Decker on May 29, 2016, 09:31:20 AM
FWIW I did run a combat build for a while using Imp VTOL (IIRC). The low support penalty means you can stack it 3x and still come up ahead of hover, legs and treads. Of course they have crappy integrity, limiting their interest for combat.

I also think that late-game flight units are crap, with their high heat generation.

Heat and energy requirements balloon up quickly due to the double effect of faster movement and increased resource requirements per tile. In effect, it's impossible to lift a high mass because stacking flight units doesn't scale linearly with respect to heat and power. IMO it should. If the player wants to dedicate so many slots to propulsion, power and heat sinks, why not allow it? I would favor a per tile requirement of 0 balanced with increased base costs.

While we're at it, I would also remove the quantum effect of the overweight penalty. Your speed should be just a linear function of (total propulsion)/weight.

Sorry for your work schedule ;D
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 09:42:18 AM
Quote from: zxc on May 29, 2016, 09:20:05 AM
Goddamn... sorry.

My intention was just to offer some thoughts and get some discussion going. Flight propulsion seems to be very delicate to balance.
Haha, nah, it's fine. Obviously still my choice to actually go through with it!

Quote from: Decker on May 29, 2016, 09:31:20 AM
I also think that late-game flight units are crap, with their high heat generation.

Heat and energy requirements balloon up quickly due to the double effect of faster movement and increased resource requirements per tile. In effect, it's impossible to lift a high mass because stacking flight units doesn't scale linearly with respect to heat and power.
Well now it does, so it's no longer an issue :). And you will now pretty much always want to upgrade flight units when you can. If you need the support, anyway, because obviously the experts don't need quite so much, BUT you'll probably be wanting more either way due to the speed reduction.

I also nerfed mass support utilities.

Quote from: Decker on May 29, 2016, 09:31:20 AM
IMO it should. If the player wants to dedicate so many slots to propulsion, power and heat sinks, why not allow it? I would favor a per tile requirement of 0 balanced with increased base costs.
Increased per-turn costs would remove the challenge of getting enough energy and dissipation to move as much as you want to. I like that the cost varies directly proportionally to the amount you move. Every step means something.

Quote from: Decker on May 29, 2016, 09:31:20 AM
While we're at it, I would also remove the quantum effect of the overweight penalty. Your speed should be just a linear function of (total propulsion)/weight.
Having a binary effect is clearer and also makes some sense as these things are more sensitive to weight restrictions and quickly become inefficient once you pass the threshold they're designed for.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: zxc on May 29, 2016, 09:48:53 AM
Quote from: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 09:42:18 AM
I also nerfed mass support utilities.

Wish I never said anything
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Decker on May 29, 2016, 10:03:56 AM
Quote
Well now it does, so it's no longer an issue.

The balloon effect is still present, just less pronounced (you need either zero per tile requirements or zero speed increments to avoid it entirely). It does make the game more challenging though, so it's fine. I'm eager to test the changes!

I'm not a fan of the binary overweight threshold because it's annoying to optimize for and it doesn't really make sense. Add 1 more mass => no effect in general, or dramatic slow down. You could keep the system as it is, but scale the slowdown to the amount of overweight. E.g. if you're 20% overweight you get 20% of the overweight penalty.

Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 07:04:22 PM
Quote from: zxc on May 29, 2016, 09:48:53 AM
Quote from: Kyzrati on May 29, 2016, 09:42:18 AM
I also nerfed mass support utilities.

Wish I never said anything
:) Don't worry, they're still usable, and I mostly nerfed the high-level ones, which were kinda ridiculously good, yeah? The entry-level one is unchanged, and Adv. went from 10->8. Some of the best could originally give you 40-50 support at a modest energy cost.

They still do their job of basically using energy to turn a utility slot into propulsion (albeit without a speed bonus), and cost a good bit less energy than the power source required to generate it which they themselves can support.

Depending on how the propulsion changes turn out, maybe this could be readjusted. In fact, I may as well go over it here to ask for input from anyone who wants to examine the numbers. Weight redistribution components:
Rating / Upkeep / Support (Old) / Support (New)
2455
36108
582012
7103016
8124020
9155025

Quote from: Decker on May 29, 2016, 10:03:56 AM
Quote
Well now it does, so it's no longer an issue.
The balloon effect is still present, just less pronounced (you need either zero per tile requirements or zero speed increments to avoid it entirely).
Ah, I wasn't sure what you were referring to, more movement causing the effect, or what zxc and I were talking about (the thing I was trying to fix): high-tier flight costs rapidly expanding due to a single increment in the per-move cost, which is no longer an issue.

A system where costs are derived entirely from upkeep wouldn't be fun, because chunks of heat and energy cost would suddenly be applied at turn intervals, and you'd start trying to game when you could take your "free" moves, and when those costs would come into play.  Then we'd need some kind of countdown for it, and it would become a focus of the game for some players. It would also mean you'd have a much harder time moving when low on power for whatever reason, or you'd at least be stuck in a single position for longer.

Quote from: Decker on May 29, 2016, 10:03:56 AM
I'm not a fan of the binary overweight threshold because it's annoying to optimize for and it doesn't really make sense. Add 1 more mass => no effect in general, or dramatic slow down. You could keep the system as it is, but scale the slowdown to the amount of overweight. E.g. if you're 20% overweight you get 20% of the overweight penalty.
From a gameplay standpoint, a system with concrete thresholds leads to more interesting decisions, because it makes the results of those decisions much more extreme here, in an area where a linear model would add to the uncertainty of the true long-term impact of carrying a little extra weight.

Probably more importantly, it makes it much clearer when one form of propulsion is no longer ideal for what you're aiming to do.

I do wonder how a linear model would impact the game in specific ways, but it isn't something to spend time on now.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: zxc on May 29, 2016, 09:33:47 PM
FWIW I'm fine with the way overweight works currently. It's very punishing to go over the support limit even slightly with flight, but it doesn't prevent moving outright. Going overweight generally happens when propulsion gets destroyed, which is always very harsh with a flight build. Maybe it's overcomplicated as a mechanic but the end result is you should stay beneath your support limit with the lighter propulsion, which is simple enough of a rule to follow.

The new weight redistribution values seem OK. The really high rating ones were insane, but also really rare. It was always such a treat to find one. I guess it will still be a treat with these values too. You've probably seen one or two of my morgues with far more mass support than I needed (maybe over 100 with flight?).
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: biomatter on May 30, 2016, 05:11:09 PM
Just chiming in that I am also ok with how the weight system works currently. I've been running mostly with legs and treads lately, and it's very easy to tell when I'm underweight, overweight x1, x2, etc, and what the penalty for each level is.
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on May 30, 2016, 07:29:42 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Quote from: zxc on May 29, 2016, 09:33:47 PM
You've probably seen one or two of my morgues with far more mass support than I needed (maybe over 100 with flight?).
Yeah those support utils are crazy good :). And really the essential parts for a speed run are mostly going to be lightweight.

The idea was that if you managed to find one of the good support utils you could theoretically be a combat flier, but I got worried about them while working on this latest flight update, since we have the upcoming fabrication changes and you might be able to easily build one. Maybe I overreacted a bit and a better solution would be to rebuff them and just make them even more rare. (Their distribution setting before was just "uncommon.")

Depends on what they're for, really--to improve a flight build, or is the goal to enable flying death machines, and would anyone even want to do that, anyway...
Title: Re: Alpha 8 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
Post by: Kyzrati on August 04, 2016, 11:35:02 PM
Quote from: zxc on May 28, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
* One-time hacks on terminals like Locate Traps should gray out if you complete the hack, exit the terminal and re-open it (likewise if you take an operator's key and discover where the traps are).
I've just add a feature that remembers all previously hacked targets on a given machine and grays them out if you reconnect and it makes no sense for those to be hacked again (about a third of them).

The Locate Traps / Operator Data change can't be made, however, at least not in blanket fashion, because that's information you're not necessarily aware of in all cases--a nearby terminal might have other traps within range that the core does not (because the core technically reveals those near where you acquire it, rather than based out of that Operator's terminal). An alternative approach would be possible, but is rather involved because it requires allowing cores to remember who their previous owner was, and trace that back to the original terminal to search from that point... not really worth it right now for the relatively small benefit.