Grid Sage Forums
Cogmind => Ideas => Topic started by: Supernovadx on June 10, 2015, 07:30:52 PM
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I was talking with someone on the IRC who felt the combat needed a little something to make it more exciting. I agreed. Although the combat is cool, and the weapon types at higher levels are very interesting I think the game could use a little something else. I looked to brogue and other rogue-likes like cataclysm dda to help me come up with some Ideas. I figured out that the main problem with the combat (for me) is each interaction/turn is its own entity and there are almost no weapons that last multiple turns. Without these semi persistent weapons the combat turns can feel disjointed and separate. Here is my solution, a short list of weapons that I think will make the combat much more enjoyable. Feel free to add to the list in the comments.
I will mention each weapon and talk about why it is good. Be sure to notice the theme of these weapons and upgrades making combat more strategic and making the turns flow together nicer.
The important thing to remember is all of these effects last multiple turns
Smoke Trail Emitter:
Each turn consumes energy and Matter must be resource intensive so that only bigger bots can use it.
Ejects a smoke trail behind the cogmind obstructing opponents vision.
This makes Running a more legitimate tactic, and provides more fun in the "flight" part of fight or flight gameplay
If the player blows up a wall or something with a grenade it can also generate smoke which the player can use to escape as well.
Posion Gas:
This can be in weapon form, but it is also a game object
The player can find a gas emitter and spray it down a corridor to damage and deter enemies from coming their way
The player can fill a room with gas and damage all enemies inside then while the gas is still active the player can fire into the room and depending on the type of weapon the player can either just pick off enemies or light the gas on fire.
This can also cause some sort of item damage along with core corrosion -ArseFace
Electric Gas Emitter:
Electric Field Emitter:
Same Delio as the other gasses
When walked into it increases corruption and shuts down systems
(https://i.imgur.com/tigCbdY.jpg)
concept
Gas blower:
a way for enemies and the player to overcome their gas problems
Energy Wall Placer:
The player can place a small energy wall energy from their power module. It blocks fire from opponents, but anyone can walk through it.
Certain types of ammo damage the wall more
The wall goes away when the player turns it off, runs out of energy, or exceeds a maximum distance from it
Acid/Lava Ejectors:
Require large amounts of cooling to hold
When activated sprays liquid on ground
When stepped on applies heat
Would be great to combo with Th weapons to finish off enemies
would also be good for blocking off thin corridors
Blade Shooter -NEW
Similar to that of Quake
When shot the blade flies around several times a turn
Can bounce
dies after some period of time
Flame Thrower that sets ground alight -NEW
More of a Mod to the pre existing flame thrower
Has a small chance of setting ground areas alight
Other things:
When different machines explode they can emit different substances such as gasses
like if a nuclear reactor explodes near a player or enemy it should emit something along the lines of the electric gas shutting down systems of nearby robots.
I feel this will add a bit more motion to the game's current combat system and give players a better strategic advantage. I love cogmind and I can't wait to see it get better. Thank you.
I can't wait to hear your responses positive or negative.
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I'm in favor of things like this. I don't think it will solve all my issues with Cogmind's current combat, but it would certainly help.
Incoming nitpicks.
Running away is already too easy. Making it easier with smoke trails would be devastating.
Poison gas should be corrosive since poison implies some sort of biological shenanigans.
Electric gas could easily be called a field, or a cloud, or something non-gaseous. Electric gas sounds... weird.
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I'm in favor of things like this. I don't think it will solve all my issues with Cogmind's current combat, but it would certainly help.
Thanks for the comment
Incoming nitpicks.
"I'M READY"
Running away is already too easy. Making it easier with smoke trails would be devastating.
A valid point. I agree if you have flight units it is very easy to get away. What I will say is if you are a hulk bot with massive treads and heavy equipment, and for whatever reason you need to run, the smoke would come in handy. My solution is to make it more resource intensive.
Poison gas should be corrosive since poison implies some sort of biological shenanigans.
Agreed
Electric gas could easily be called a field, or a cloud, or something non-gaseous. Electric gas sounds... weird.
Agreed
Changes will be made to the list based on your suggestions. Thanks for responding.
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Most of these ideas are apparently targeted at crowd control, and mostly to the effect of making escapes easier, making escapes any easier than they are now (for the prepared and experienced player) would definitely be overpowered. This is why last year shortly after adding a feature that allows you to hack Engineers and get them to build temporary walls, I removed it. (They can still do this, but the game won't let you assimilate them.)
It's simply too easy to beat the game once you have effective area denial capabilities at your disposal. This lesson was learned in the 7DRL prototype in which the only known victories were using area denial which was possible in that version. The idea is that if the design is loosened up to give you these benefits, then in order to balance the game properly it will have you facing off against an even more ruthless and cunning enemy. Thus I don't think it adds enough to the game without requiring you to do more specific things in order to survive.
The current primary method of crowd control, launchers, are great because they come with their own significant drawbacks.
When different machines explode they can emit different substances such as gasses
like if a nuclear reactor explodes near a player or enemy it should emit something along the lines of the electric gas shutting down systems of nearby robots.
This is already in game, it's just instantaneous rather than persistent. If you haven't yet used Neutrino Reactor arrays to shut down and rewire robots you're in for a treat.
The player can place a small energy wall energy from their power module. It blocks fire from opponents, but anyone can walk through it.
Certain types of ammo damage the wall more
The wall goes away when the player turns it off, runs out of energy, or exceeds a maximum distance from it
I don't see how this provides any meaningful tactical difference from shield generators, remote shield generators, and powered armor as they exist now.
All that said, in terms of "persistent area of effect" type weapons, one of the earliest new features planned for implementation which might scratch that itch and add a new dimension to combat are Traps. They will come in a variety of types, some similar to ideas you've mentioned, though I've yet to work on the details. At first these will only be stationary, and only for the enemy to use against you, but I can see it becoming possible that you can use them against the enemy later on. (You can see this feature on the roadmap--it's been there for a while.)
Some of the associated Trap effects could be similar to these ideas.
Anyone else feel free to join in!
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Thanks for your response first of all.
Most of these ideas are apparently targeted at crowd control, and mostly to the effect of making escapes easier, making escapes any easier than they are now (for the prepared and experienced player) would definitely be overpowered. This is why last year shortly after adding a feature that allows you to hack Engineers and get them to build temporary walls, I removed it. (They can still do this, but the game won't let you assimilate them.)
Haha It must be a bit of a Freudian slip in terms of item creation.
All that said, in terms of "persistent area of effect" type weapons, one of the earliest new features planned for implementation which might scratch that itch and add a new dimension to combat are Traps. They will come in a variety of types, some similar to ideas you've mentioned, though I've yet to work on the details. At first these will only be stationary, and only for the enemy to use against you, but I can see it becoming possible that you can use them against the enemy later on. (You can see this feature on the roadmap--it's been there for a while.)
That seems cool. Can't wait for that.
At the moment I can't think of any other weapon ideas, I'd like to see if other people can come up with some. I'll come back later if I think of anything that does not involve crowd control.
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Semi-on-topic, I was kind of wondering if you ever plan on implementing unique floor tiles and stuff. He mentioned lava tiles (and I'll admit I thought about lava too) , but there are definitely other - possibly more thematic - possibilities.
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I totally agree on the escaping bit, which is why I was against the smoke screen.
I think corrosive gas and the electric boogaloo version could be handled well. I also don't think they should be viewed exclusively as player handled weapons. They could be environmental hazards or machines limited to various branches.
A gas based-weapon wouldn't be able to be stacked. Every other non-melee weapon in the game can be, including launchers.
You wouldn't be immune to the gasses, meaning picking up scrap before things clear would come with a large set of downsides.
Enemies shouldn't factor it into their movement/targeting, meaning it wouldn't assist in escape.
The conversation that sparked this was about the limited number of mid-combat decisions you have to make. Combat right now boils down to fight or flight. Area of effect and persistent environment conditions would add to potential considerations. Be they weapons, terrain, traps, or whatever.
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I would like to see some more environmental effects: like fires or lingering smoke from explosions. As the effects are very nice and shiny, they could linger a bit longer. Due to the nature of turn based play it would annoy players if animations were slower, so maybe "very slightly persistent weapons?" and explosions?
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I just changed the name of the topic to clear some confusion. It is no longer just semi persistant weps, it now includes effects as these can be just as interesting.
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Semi-on-topic, I was kind of wondering if you ever plan on implementing unique floor tiles and stuff. He mentioned lava tiles (and I'll admit I thought about lava too) , but there are definitely other - possibly more thematic - possibilities.
This is pretty standard in roguelikes, for sure, so it's one of the things that really stands out as "missing." (Though not in the we must have this sense of missing.) Cogmind was designed with the intention of taking new paths in a lot of areas. It's all about parts + robots, and as you've all seen it's not too hard in certain situations for the maps to become completely littered with robots stomping over fields of parts and debris. It would be easy to make the battlefield altogether too chaotic with a greater variety of persistent content.
What I normally ask myself when I come up with a neat idea is "can this same concept be represented through some robot or part?" And usually the answer is yes. Actually, that reminds me: I've already done this on a larger scale than you've seen--you guys haven't met them yet, but there are a number of robots with permanent AOE effects around them. I complete forgot about them because they're not in the Alpha... That was a result of me having this very same discussion with myself last year :P
I would like to see some more environmental effects: like fires or lingering smoke from explosions. As the effects are very nice and shiny, they could linger a bit longer. Due to the nature of turn based play it would annoy players if animations were slower, so maybe "very slightly persistent weapons?" and explosions?
When starting from the 7DRL to develop the full game, I thought for quite a while about smoke and fire. I'm quite familiar with them as a mechanic because they play a huge role in X@COM, and based on that experience I decided they would not fit well into my vision for Cogmind. The foundation for them was originally in there and I took them out (to be honest they also require a lot of processing to do them justice).
Now maybe one could say there's the option to make them purely an eye candy feature, but I think that unnecessarily pollutes the map view, and, more importantly, players will want them to have some real effect, most likely assuming they do unless told otherwise.
Another design philosophy behind the Cogmind map is to keep much of it completely static unless something is happening.
I'll be referencing this thread when it's time to design Traps.
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I had a couple more ideas for weps that I'll add in the top too.
I thought of a blade launcher similar to that of quake where you shoot it once and It bounces around. This one could be cool. Also maybe a flame thrower that can light small amounts of ground on fire. The NPC's already have flame throwers but it might be interesting to see it have some sort of terrain effect even if not very large.