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26
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 13 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
« on: February 24, 2017, 08:31:37 PM »i don't mind the dieing, that's part of the fun of roguelikes. what grinds my gears is getting stuck or overwhelmed and stuck "as in not being able to fight back".This is a bit of an odd aspect of Cogmind, and one I've found mildly annoying myself. As far as I can tell, the design of Cogmind is meant to allow the player to recover from what seems like a game-ending situation, provided they realize when to cut and run. That is, it doesn't kill the player as soon as they are in a bad spot, which will give them the chance to escape, find new gear, and keep on going stronger than before. I've been able to do this several times, but I've also run into the flipside you've pointed out where because the game is designed to let you live for a while even after you've lost everything, it can feel like you are a dead robot walking the moment things go bad, since you might end up desperately running away for 20 turns and end up dead anyway.
I find a good contrast is DoomRL (aka DRL). It's similarly focused on ranged combat, but the main difference is that dying can happen within a couple turns if you get careless, but as with most games you can fight back as well at 1HP as at 100% HP. Because DoomRL has a powerful cover system and moderately powerful dodge system, if you are careful you can kill everything to get out of a bad situation without getting hit again.
If you are going to focus on combat in Cogmind, then get storages and stash a bunch of spare parts in them. Storages tend to stick around under fire, so you can keep yourself well equipped as the battle rages. You never want to be without replacements for weapons, propulsion, and power in Cogmind in general, but especially when playing a combat build. Also, right-click on enemies to know their weaknesses, swarmers in particular are really weak to explosives (doubly-so because explosives clear groups well), and that knowledge goes a long way to dealing with enemies efficiently.
27
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 13 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
« on: January 19, 2017, 12:35:46 AM »
Well, just had another death, though this one happened after what seemed like 4 or 5 lame duck situations I recovered from, so at least that part of the game's design finally worked out in my favour.
Also, I found Zion. I've no clue what it's for other than advanced tutorials. some buddies, and some interesting gear, but it was neat. I can't remember if data miner is on -7 or -6, though, since I've found them before but I don't recall exactly where. Seems like grabbing gear from behind closed doors, or maybe just going into Zion, or maybe the Imprinter (I got a bonus for that), gets the caves full of MAIN.C's goons, since I kept having to fight waves of them just to proceed. Certainly made Signal Interpreters my favourite item.
Also, I found Zion. I've no clue what it's for other than advanced tutorials. some buddies, and some interesting gear, but it was neat. I can't remember if data miner is on -7 or -6, though, since I've found them before but I don't recall exactly where. Seems like grabbing gear from behind closed doors, or maybe just going into Zion, or maybe the Imprinter (I got a bonus for that), gets the caves full of MAIN.C's goons, since I kept having to fight waves of them just to proceed. Certainly made Signal Interpreters my favourite item.
28
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 13 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
« on: January 17, 2017, 10:58:35 AM »
That looks like Caves, and since you are on -5 I'm pretty sure it is leading back to the main branch. That is, unless my run from -6/Caves through to it's outermost limit (there's more than one outward going branch of Caves), then back towards the main branch through -5/Caves was only one possibility.
29
General Discussion / Re: New here, some questions about time/energy :)
« on: January 17, 2017, 12:16:16 AM »
Oh, fair enough. I guess I just assumed it was more granular than it is, and that the counters on items were counting some arbitrary "second", but I expected energy was passed around in smaller chunks. Basically, I figured absolute time passed all the time, rather than every interval of 100 being particularly meaningful, and that counters and such just rounded up the remaining time units for their display.
Granted, it's not a huge difference either way in practice.
Granted, it's not a huge difference either way in practice.
30
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 13 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION]
« on: January 17, 2017, 12:12:07 AM »
Well, I've had two runs so far. First one died in -10/Mines from an infestation, Second one died at -6/Extension. I've never even heard of Extension, but I saw a blast-door-barred gate and decided to explore.
Knowing more about the time system helped a bit, mostly in realizing just how strong retreat can be, and that's it really is worth it to move around a bit during combat to pick up parts. I also really like the autoreplace-on-pickup feature, though I'm not sure if Flak Guns should replace Assault Rifles, unless I'm mistaken and Flak Guns aren't more of shotgun weapon.
Knowing more about the time system helped a bit, mostly in realizing just how strong retreat can be, and that's it really is worth it to move around a bit during combat to pick up parts. I also really like the autoreplace-on-pickup feature, though I'm not sure if Flak Guns should replace Assault Rifles, unless I'm mistaken and Flak Guns aren't more of shotgun weapon.
31
General Discussion / Re: New here, some questions about time/energy :)
« on: January 16, 2017, 02:25:21 PM »
So...why use the term "turn"?
It sounds like the only meaning it has is that every actor gets +100 energy units when they come up in the queue. I guess given that it's neither looping through all the actors to update energy units before checking to see who has the most energy to act at any given time step, nor adding just 1 energy unit every go around the queue (which would do the same thing, just slower), it's kind of a turn.
Assuming I'm right about the meaning of turn, it sounds like the main difference is that actors get energy roughly equal to their usual action energy cost. Granted, the only other energy-based setup whose implementation I'm familiar with is DoomRL, but the only difference I'm aware of between that and Cogmind is that the energy gained every time an actor comes up in DoomRL is about 1/10th the usual action energy cost.
It sounds like the only meaning it has is that every actor gets +100 energy units when they come up in the queue. I guess given that it's neither looping through all the actors to update energy units before checking to see who has the most energy to act at any given time step, nor adding just 1 energy unit every go around the queue (which would do the same thing, just slower), it's kind of a turn.
Assuming I'm right about the meaning of turn, it sounds like the main difference is that actors get energy roughly equal to their usual action energy cost. Granted, the only other energy-based setup whose implementation I'm familiar with is DoomRL, but the only difference I'm aware of between that and Cogmind is that the energy gained every time an actor comes up in DoomRL is about 1/10th the usual action energy cost.
32
General Discussion / Re: New here, some questions about time/energy :)
« on: January 13, 2017, 02:26:57 PM »
While I can't speak to how Cogmind specifically handles energy, I can (sourcing from DoomRL and the T-Engine documentation) speak to the general theory.
The system has a threshold value, above which actors can act. Any action subtracts its own duration from that actor's energy, and the system would be refilling that energy in a loop constantly. When it's the player's turn to act (that is, they have the highest energy score and its above the threshold, use some arbitrary but consistent tiebreaker if two actors are tied for energy), then this loop is paused until input is received, but the process is basically the same for all actors. There are no fixed turns, nor is there a point when turns "start", the game just goes around the table to find whoever has the required energy, and then they can act immediately.
If you must consider it in terms of turns, at least as far as implementation details go, the procedure is basically:
looped forever as the game is running.
For a concrete example, let's use 100 as our threshold, set movement and shooting to take 10 energy units. Let's have a player and an enemy:
At start, let's give them a random starting energy between 0 and 9, say 6 for the player and 1 for the enemy. Eventually, after 45 checks around the table and subsequent additions to the energy totals of both actors, the system will have given enough energy for one to act:
Player energy: 101
Enemy energy: 96
Now the player can act, and right now anything they do reduces their energy by 10:
Player energy: 101 -> 91
Enemy energy: 96
At this point, it's back to the energy refill loop, until someone goes above 50:
Player energy: 96
Enemy energy: 101
Now the enemy acts, and this continues.
If, for instance, the player had an alternate fire that cost 17 energy, then this situation would occur:
Player energy: 101 -> 84
Enemy energy: 96
Wait for 5 time units:
Player energy: 89
Enemy energy: 91 -> 91
Wait for 10 time units:
Player energy: 99
Enemy energy: 101 -> 91
Then the player gets to go again (after giving all actors another 2 energy).
For a more interesting example, let's have 2 enemies, one of which takes 5 units to move. For starting conditions:
Player energy: 3
Slow Enemy energy: 6
Fast Enemy energy: 2
In this case, the slow enemy goes first:
Player energy: 98
Slow Enemy energy: 101 -> 91
Fast Enemy energy: 97
Then the player gets above 50 next:
Player energy: 101 -> 91
Slow Enemy energy: 94
Fast Enemy energy: 100
And then the Fast enemy gets above 50, but maintains energy advantage:
Player energy: 92
Slow Enemy energy: 95
Fast Enemy energy: 101 -> 96
Player energy: 97
Slow Enemy energy: 100
Fast Enemy energy: 101 -> 96
Player energy: 98
Slow Enemy energy: 101 -> 91
Fast Enemy energy: 97
And then the player gets to act again.
I hope that wasn't too complicated, though I realize there were a lot of examples there, and it should cover questions 1 and 3.
As for question 2, that varies from game to game. most roguelikes (Cogmind included AFAICT) have the animations attached to weapons fire be essentially a visual flair, but no additional time/energy/turns is/are used for the projectile itself, nor is there a way for the player to avoid a slow projectile by moving out of the way after it is fired. The only exception I'm aware of is ToME, where projectiles can hang in the air between player actions, depending on timing, so fast characters can avoid previously fired projectiles. AFAIK ToME projectiles are actors in their own right with their own energy counter.
The system has a threshold value, above which actors can act. Any action subtracts its own duration from that actor's energy, and the system would be refilling that energy in a loop constantly. When it's the player's turn to act (that is, they have the highest energy score and its above the threshold, use some arbitrary but consistent tiebreaker if two actors are tied for energy), then this loop is paused until input is received, but the process is basically the same for all actors. There are no fixed turns, nor is there a point when turns "start", the game just goes around the table to find whoever has the required energy, and then they can act immediately.
If you must consider it in terms of turns, at least as far as implementation details go, the procedure is basically:
Code: ("a turn") [Select]
foreach actor
actor.energy += 1
foreach actor
if actor.energy > threshold
if actor.type == player
//handle input
else
//do AI stuff
looped forever as the game is running.
For a concrete example, let's use 100 as our threshold, set movement and shooting to take 10 energy units. Let's have a player and an enemy:
At start, let's give them a random starting energy between 0 and 9, say 6 for the player and 1 for the enemy. Eventually, after 45 checks around the table and subsequent additions to the energy totals of both actors, the system will have given enough energy for one to act:
Player energy: 101
Enemy energy: 96
Now the player can act, and right now anything they do reduces their energy by 10:
Player energy: 101 -> 91
Enemy energy: 96
At this point, it's back to the energy refill loop, until someone goes above 50:
Player energy: 96
Enemy energy: 101
Now the enemy acts, and this continues.
If, for instance, the player had an alternate fire that cost 17 energy, then this situation would occur:
Player energy: 101 -> 84
Enemy energy: 96
Wait for 5 time units:
Player energy: 89
Enemy energy: 91 -> 91
Wait for 10 time units:
Player energy: 99
Enemy energy: 101 -> 91
Then the player gets to go again (after giving all actors another 2 energy).
For a more interesting example, let's have 2 enemies, one of which takes 5 units to move. For starting conditions:
Player energy: 3
Slow Enemy energy: 6
Fast Enemy energy: 2
In this case, the slow enemy goes first:
Player energy: 98
Slow Enemy energy: 101 -> 91
Fast Enemy energy: 97
Then the player gets above 50 next:
Player energy: 101 -> 91
Slow Enemy energy: 94
Fast Enemy energy: 100
And then the Fast enemy gets above 50, but maintains energy advantage:
Player energy: 92
Slow Enemy energy: 95
Fast Enemy energy: 101 -> 96
Player energy: 97
Slow Enemy energy: 100
Fast Enemy energy: 101 -> 96
Player energy: 98
Slow Enemy energy: 101 -> 91
Fast Enemy energy: 97
And then the player gets to act again.
I hope that wasn't too complicated, though I realize there were a lot of examples there, and it should cover questions 1 and 3.
As for question 2, that varies from game to game. most roguelikes (Cogmind included AFAICT) have the animations attached to weapons fire be essentially a visual flair, but no additional time/energy/turns is/are used for the projectile itself, nor is there a way for the player to avoid a slow projectile by moving out of the way after it is fired. The only exception I'm aware of is ToME, where projectiles can hang in the air between player actions, depending on timing, so fast characters can avoid previously fired projectiles. AFAIK ToME projectiles are actors in their own right with their own energy counter.
33
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 12 Discussion/Feedback (spoiler-free)
« on: December 15, 2016, 02:15:21 PM »
Oh, okay. I hadn't noticed in my own play, but it did seem odd on your last stream how you weren't as overwhelmed going ham in a12 as I've been in a11 from just trying to back off and defend myself from the odd patrol in, while generally avoiding things.
34
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 12 Discussion/Feedback (spoiler-free)
« on: December 14, 2016, 08:49:03 AM »I intended to lower the difficulty from Alpha 11, but went overboard with a change to one of the key values (which I'd never actually modified before and actually didn't realize just how key it wasWhat value was that? The main thing I noticed was the relative increase in useful items, because several utilities were pulled together to avoid cruft, but that doesn't seem like a "value" exactly.).
35
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 12 Discussion/Feedback (spoiler-free)
« on: December 04, 2016, 09:13:43 PM »
My main mistake was not realizing that the Beast was appropriately named. After that it was just running into Arc after Arc and lacking the tools to manage it.
I'm guessing the rewards in question (which I did get) are on a per-run basis.
I'm guessing the rewards in question (which I did get) are on a per-run basis.
36
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 12 Discussion/Feedback (spoiler-free)
« on: November 27, 2016, 06:48:29 PM »
Well, that run ended poorly. Stupid interminable cave systems.
37
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 12 Discussion/Feedback (spoiler-free)
« on: November 25, 2016, 11:00:33 AM »Power is generally going to be a little less common to see lying around compared to other parts--the best way to get it is from other robots. 4x Cld is nice
Yeah, I ended up just blowing up a couple high-level defenders for my power cores. Thankfully I had armour (which seems odd for a somewhat stealthy build, but it paid off).
Also, it was 6x Cld VTOL off a group of prototypes, I just couldn't carry it all.
38
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 12 Discussion/Feedback (spoiler-free)
« on: November 24, 2016, 02:04:46 PM »
At this point the run is at -6 Caves, and I've been finding that the drops are definitely improved from earlier runs (to the point where I'm still wondering if it's been carrying me. My v10 and v11 runs got out of materials twice, and barely, usually they ended at -9 Mat. This time I've gone through -9 Mines, -8 Storage, and now I'm in -6 Caves). However, I haven't been lucky with power core drops, which was a complication for my 4 Cld. VTOL Modules.
39
General Discussion / Re: Alpha 12 Discussion/Feedback (spoiler-free)
« on: November 22, 2016, 03:00:03 PM »
I've only had one run so far (and it's still in progress at -8 Mat, so I haven't played much), but the robot scan data immediately stuck out as a positive. As in, in the course of using it (because it's there) I discovered Pests are weak to Explosive damage (assuming I'm reading it right), and so realized I could just dispatch 2 groups in one turn each (one in -10 Mines and one in -9 Mat) with a Grenade Launcher, rather than grinding away as I normally do with lasers and rifles. I've also been finding fights in general taking a bit less time than before, so I guess damage overflow is doing its job, but that's hard to say for sure.
On the other hand, I've also been getting kinda lucky in some ways, like finding 3 Cesium-Ion Thrusters right at the start of -8 Mat after winning a fight through reactor detonation on -9 Mat and losing all of my equipment save for my utilities (except for the Weight Redist. Unit).
On the other hand, I've also been getting kinda lucky in some ways, like finding 3 Cesium-Ion Thrusters right at the start of -8 Mat after winning a fight through reactor detonation on -9 Mat and losing all of my equipment save for my utilities (except for the Weight Redist. Unit).
40
Strategies / Re: Alpha 11 combat strategy
« on: November 07, 2016, 05:42:36 PM »
I wish I had read this before yesterday, since I had my second post-Materials run ruined by excessive heat, and I hadn't quite internalized why (probably all the Plasma weapons and Electrolasers and such. Caves were scary but paid off weapons-wise, though having 5 weapon slots on a flight build might have been suboptimal).
41
General Discussion / Re: "Taking Traditional Roguelikes Mainstream."
« on: September 07, 2016, 12:34:29 PM »
Being able to undo moves to an arbitrary point doesn't seem in keeping with the genre, but it would be nice to have some quick overview of the last 30 or so moves (Crypt of the Necrodancer does something similar, though it only shows ~10 moves before death). A full replay system would also be nice, since you'd be looking for the error in judgement, but I understand if that's tricky to set up.
42
General Discussion / Re: Is This Game Right For Me?
« on: August 21, 2016, 08:00:25 PM »
Ranged Combat alone is actually a pretty big shift. I came here from DoomRL so I was already used to it, but it changes the play a fair amount. Mind you, Cogmind levels are built in a way that makes it relatively straightforward to get behind cover and funnel enemies, since there are rooms to duck into strewn about the place (at least in the first few levels).
43
General Discussion / Re: Is This Game Right For Me?
« on: August 21, 2016, 02:27:15 PM »
I guess this is mostly directed at ukulele since this thread is old.
One thing I've found about Cogmind is that combat is often eventually suicide. It's not that you can't fight, but that you need to be pretty cautious about doing so, and you aren't going to gain a lot from doing it (the parts you break off enemies are usually not as good as those found in rooms, with the possible exception of killing Pests for their flight units on -10). If you are playing DCSS to run around and slaughter things, that style will be difficult in Cogmind. Mind you, I tend to play a flight-propulsion stealth-oriented build, because I've been burned on losing all my equipment in a bad fight a few times.
That being said, Cogmind is a really neat approach to the rogue-like, so if you want something that greatly encourages playstyles besides running around killing everything it's awesome for that.
Also, try Crypt of the Necrodancer playing Bard. It's basically the game without the rhythm element, so just the pure rogue-like bit.
One thing I've found about Cogmind is that combat is often eventually suicide. It's not that you can't fight, but that you need to be pretty cautious about doing so, and you aren't going to gain a lot from doing it (the parts you break off enemies are usually not as good as those found in rooms, with the possible exception of killing Pests for their flight units on -10). If you are playing DCSS to run around and slaughter things, that style will be difficult in Cogmind. Mind you, I tend to play a flight-propulsion stealth-oriented build, because I've been burned on losing all my equipment in a bad fight a few times.
That being said, Cogmind is a really neat approach to the rogue-like, so if you want something that greatly encourages playstyles besides running around killing everything it's awesome for that.
Also, try Crypt of the Necrodancer playing Bard. It's basically the game without the rhythm element, so just the pure rogue-like bit.
44
Ideas / Re: Projectile avoidance modifiers, a reference window
« on: July 21, 2016, 11:34:05 PM »The primary use is still quickly scanning through massive piles of parts that are too dense for '3', though.I was about to say that's how I use it, because I do that quite a bit. Though I also play a kb+m setup because I found from DoomRL that using mouse to aim is a lot faster than the keyboard. I mean, auto-targeting does help quite a bit in both games, but when explosives or flanking attack parties come up (or cornershooting in general in DoomRL) manual aim becomes key.
As for the evasion window, I think it's a great idea, both for the existing volley window and itself. I don't pay a huge amount of attention to the volley window because I don't really think about it, it's tucked away in the corner, and it's all kinda dark green. If that element changed in response to me starting to target I'd notice right away and pay attention to it, especially since the standard for Cogmind UI changes is a brief but conspicuous scan-in effect.
45
General & Off-Topic / Re: Introduce Yourself!
« on: July 13, 2016, 11:55:29 PM »
Hello, Cogmind fans. I figure I should introduce myself, as it seems to be the custom here.
I'm a software developer by trade, though only for a few years now doing work for a naval architecture software company (i.e. we make the software for the naval architects). I also have been playing video games my whole life, mostly RTS games, and more recently fighting games. I got into roguelikes a few years ago thanks to NetHack (thanks PhD comics), and then branched out a bit from there. I also make videos of games, usually competitive RTS casts. Mostly they are for YouTube, though I stream stuff regularly too.
-How did you learn about Cogmind?
I don't remember exactly, but probably Roguelike Radio.
-What other roguelikes do you enjoy?
DoomRL has been my favourite roguelike for a while, though after suggesting a flinch mechanic to replace cornershooting it's been hard for me to play it without wishing such a thing existed, but then I also most enjoy Gun Kata runs, which are all about dodging around like a hyperactive flea. I also play some NetHack forks sometimes, mostly DynaHack and NetHack Fourk.
-What are your other favorite games?
Mainly I've been playing Zero-K (open source spinoff of Total Annihilation using the Spring engine), which I also do a lot of match casts for. It's basically Total Annihilation with early Command and Conquer pacing, and minimal base building for production, and no tech tree. I've also just beaten Dark Souls 3, which was also my first full-game LP. I also used to play StarCraft:BW competitively but stopped when SC2 came out, which then bored me (everything felt really prescribed and overly discrete). Apart from that, I generally mess around with new RTS games as I find them, but none besides the aforementioned Zero-K have really stuck out to me, usually because they take for-bloody-ever to finish (i.e. 20-30 minutes on average).
For fighting games, I primarily play Skullgirls, Guilty Gear (at least AC & Xrd), and most recently Blazblue Chronophantasma (earlier versions were too clunky for me). This is probably why I've had a harder time getting into RTS.
I've also been playing a bit of Enter the Gungeon recently. It's definitely an improvement on the Isaac-style rogue-lite formula, though that formula is the only one I'm familiar with.
I suppose for games I don't play much recently but shaped my tastes and will stick with me forever: Descent 3, Myth 2, and Lode Runner 2.
+ Attachments and other options
-What do you do for fun when you're not playing games?
Hanging out with friends, though that's mostly board games or D&D, piano (usually learning songs I like by ear, though I did take years of lessons when I was younger), and Improv theatre
I'm a software developer by trade, though only for a few years now doing work for a naval architecture software company (i.e. we make the software for the naval architects). I also have been playing video games my whole life, mostly RTS games, and more recently fighting games. I got into roguelikes a few years ago thanks to NetHack (thanks PhD comics), and then branched out a bit from there. I also make videos of games, usually competitive RTS casts. Mostly they are for YouTube, though I stream stuff regularly too.
-How did you learn about Cogmind?
I don't remember exactly, but probably Roguelike Radio.
-What other roguelikes do you enjoy?
DoomRL has been my favourite roguelike for a while, though after suggesting a flinch mechanic to replace cornershooting it's been hard for me to play it without wishing such a thing existed, but then I also most enjoy Gun Kata runs, which are all about dodging around like a hyperactive flea. I also play some NetHack forks sometimes, mostly DynaHack and NetHack Fourk.
-What are your other favorite games?
Mainly I've been playing Zero-K (open source spinoff of Total Annihilation using the Spring engine), which I also do a lot of match casts for. It's basically Total Annihilation with early Command and Conquer pacing, and minimal base building for production, and no tech tree. I've also just beaten Dark Souls 3, which was also my first full-game LP. I also used to play StarCraft:BW competitively but stopped when SC2 came out, which then bored me (everything felt really prescribed and overly discrete). Apart from that, I generally mess around with new RTS games as I find them, but none besides the aforementioned Zero-K have really stuck out to me, usually because they take for-bloody-ever to finish (i.e. 20-30 minutes on average).
For fighting games, I primarily play Skullgirls, Guilty Gear (at least AC & Xrd), and most recently Blazblue Chronophantasma (earlier versions were too clunky for me). This is probably why I've had a harder time getting into RTS.
I've also been playing a bit of Enter the Gungeon recently. It's definitely an improvement on the Isaac-style rogue-lite formula, though that formula is the only one I'm familiar with.
I suppose for games I don't play much recently but shaped my tastes and will stick with me forever: Descent 3, Myth 2, and Lode Runner 2.
+ Attachments and other options
-What do you do for fun when you're not playing games?
Hanging out with friends, though that's mostly board games or D&D, piano (usually learning songs I like by ear, though I did take years of lessons when I was younger), and Improv theatre
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