Cogmind > Ideas

Auto-overload propuslion when melee attacking with momentum

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R-26 Lightspeed:
There's an option to automatically switch to threads when firing ranged weapons then switch back automatically to previously used propulsion when moving.
My suggestion is something similar for melee weaponry :
If you have any momentum and are attacking with a melee volley, automatically overload all possible propulsion units when attacking, then stop overloading the propulsion units that overloaded because of this immediately at the start of the player's next "turn".

-Melee damage gets a boost from momentum and also speed when you do have momentum, and overloading makes you go faster (in the vast majority of cases, at least), meaning you deal more damage.
-There's no drawback from attacking with overloaded propulsion units, since all negatives come from movement.
-It is quite tedious to overload all propulsion units one by one every time you want to attack, then stop overloading them to move, then overload them again.

Kyzrati:
This doesn't actually help you, because overloading propulsion only increases your speed while moving not attacking, in other words, during the run through cells towards an enemy, for example, not while you're already adjacent to the enemy you want to attack. When you attack you just make an attack with whatever speed and momentum you already have at that point. An automatic toggle isn't really feasible, since it's not known when your intent is to attack. Also remember to use the CYCLE button (or hotkey) to quickly overload all your propulsion at once if and when you are going to approach a target. But don't expect that staying in an "overloaded" state means anything after you've already engaged and aren't actually moving anymore (this is also why your momentum drops as soon as you do anything over than move).

R-26 Lightspeed:

--- Quote from: Kyzrati on April 07, 2024, 07:55:39 AM ---This doesn't actually help you, because overloading propulsion only increases your speed while moving not attacking, in other words, during the run through cells towards an enemy, for example, not while you're already adjacent to the enemy you want to attack. When you attack you just make an attack with whatever speed and momentum you already have at that point.
--- End quote ---
If i have 1 momentum and 20 speed, and i overload flight units to reach a faster speed of 8, then my melee bonus goes higher, even without moving, as shown by both Cogmind's stats and my weapons'.


--- Quote from: Kyzrati ---An automatic toggle isn't really feasible, since it's not known when your intent is to attack.
--- End quote ---
Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the auto-threads feature already detect attack intent?


--- Quote from: Kyzrati ---Also remember to use the CYCLE button (or hotkey) to quickly overload all your propulsion at once if and when you are going to approach a target.
--- End quote ---
Clicking the CYCLE button doesn't overload propulsion, only swaps it between active/inactive.
At least i don't think so? I'm certain i tried several times in my last run to toggle overloading like this, and it didn't do anything?
The reason i checked was because i thought it did overload, so either i missed it during that run, or it was accidentally removed.
Edit: I double-checked a recording, and clicking CYCLE turned my flight units from all active to all inactive. They briefly go yellow, but that's it.


--- Quote from: Kyzrati ---But don't expect that staying in an "overloaded" state means anything after you've already engaged and aren't actually moving anymore (this is also why your momentum drops as soon as you do anything over than move).
--- End quote ---
Given what you're saying, it sort of feels like i'm going to cause a nerf to flight/hover melee, but Reaction Control Systems give 1 momentum even if you aren't moving. And those are the best way to dodge stuff while flying/hovering.
I don't know about other players, but they're usually my first option for additional evasion, meaning i'll usually have one while fighting on flight melee.

Cog-Minder also agrees with me about the benefits of overloading propulsion. The attached screenshot is for fighting one of the most powerful bots with melee weapons while stationary with a Reaction Control System, and the only difference between the two is speed.

Kyzrati:
Okay, now I see what you mean. It would've been really helpful if you mentioned the Reaction Control System in your original post, since that changes everything and I wasn't thinking about that at all, was just looking at overloaded propulsion in isolation. (You mentioned momentum, but I considered that as a part of movement, but here we're talking specifically about in combination with another utility.)


--- Quote from: R-26 Lightspeed on April 07, 2024, 10:07:33 AM ---Clicking the CYCLE button doesn't overload propulsion, only swaps it between active/inactive.
At least i don't think so? I'm certain i tried several times in my last run to toggle overloading like this, and it didn't do anything?
The reason i checked was because i thought it did overload, so either i missed it during that run, or it was accidentally removed.
Edit: I double-checked a recording, and clicking CYCLE turned my flight units from all active to all inactive. They briefly go yellow, but that's it.

--- End quote ---
Oh right, I'd forgotten that it doesn't behave like siege mode with treads, which does get cycled to (non-flight player here :P). In the case of overloadable prop it instead cycles past that state automatically, probably a decision made because you're more likely to want to siege anything you can when you can, the entire reason to be toggling treads at all, whereas there are multiple different scenarios in which you want to toggle propulsion, and it's not always to overload.


--- Quote from: R-26 Lightspeed on April 07, 2024, 10:07:33 AM ---Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the auto-threads feature already detect attack intent?

--- End quote ---
Right, but I was making that statement under the working assumption that you get no benefit from toggling while adjacent to an enemy to make an immediate melee attack with suddenly overloaded prop, in which case there would be no way to know your intent is to an attack simply be moving into a cell with no enemy.

So back to the original point... considering this discovery, attacking while overloaded should also burn out your propulsion (perhaps even at a higher chance?), and under such circumstances, having a permanent option to enable that would not be desirable, since then it could damage your prop due to attacks, and you may not always want that in every encounter.

R-26 Lightspeed:

--- Quote from: Kyzrati on April 07, 2024, 05:20:33 PM ---Okay, now I see what you mean. It would've been really helpful if you mentioned the Reaction Control System in your original post, since that changes everything and I wasn't thinking about that at all, was just looking at overloaded propulsion in isolation. (You mentioned momentum, but I considered that as a part of movement, but here we're talking specifically about in combination with another utility.)
--- End quote ---
Sorry about that, i wanted to mention it but completely forgot to do so when writing the post.


--- Quote from: Kyzrati on April 07, 2024, 05:20:33 PM ---So back to the original point... considering this discovery, attacking while overloaded should also burn out your propulsion (perhaps even at a higher chance?), and under such circumstances, having a permanent option to enable that would not be desirable, since then it could damage your prop due to attacks, and you may not always want that in every encounter.
--- End quote ---
Gah.
--- Quote from: R-26 Lightspeed on April 07, 2024, 10:07:33 AM ---Given what you're saying, it sort of feels like i'm going to cause a nerf to flight/hover melee

--- End quote ---

That change sounds like it would make managing overloading even more annoying and tedious than it already is, (which is the opposite of why i created this topic,) since you'd then have to be more careful as to which propulsion you'd want to overload when attacking, and you might also still want to stop overloading to approach enemies that just moved away.
May i suggest changing it in a different, less annoying-to-use way?
For instance, requiring the player to have moved with x speed as their last action for that speed to apply with momentum to non-ramming attacks? That would remove the benefit from constantly switching propulsion from overloading to not overloading, at least when attacking a single enemy, because even if they move away, you'd want to keep propulsion overloaded when following to get the maximum bonus from momentum.
I know there's probably quite a few issues with that alternative, but it's just an example.

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