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Author Topic: Improving the Tutorial for New Players  (Read 2879 times)

DDarkray

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Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« on: July 26, 2017, 11:16:05 AM »

Of all the questions asked by the new players (on Reddit), the most common one is about early game survival. Why do I keep dying by the overwhelmingly large army? Why does it take 10 volleys to take down a robot? Why does stealth never seem to work?

A lot of factors contribute to those early deaths: lack of understanding with the hacking mechanics, bad positioning, use of low-integrity parts, etc. Those problems can be avoided once the players realize their mistakes, but they won't know about it without any external help. Usually they would readjust their plays after reading some tips and strategy guides, but that wouldn't be needed as much if there's a good in-game tutorial.

So I've been wondering: Is there any plan to improve on the tutorial before the game is released on Steam? When the time comes where thousands of players are playing Cogmind for the very first time, I'm sure a lot of people will be having the same difficulty. I'm hoping that the early game can be beaten reasonably often by a player who has never asked for help (after some persistence).

Edit: While making this thread, I've been assuming that the majority of the newcomers are having such problem, but I don't know the number so that was only my guess.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 04:34:30 PM by DDarkray »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 06:33:43 PM »

These questions from beginners are to be expected because of how different Cogmind's world is from other roguelikes (and games in general), but I don't feel that it's a standard roguelike tutorial's place to teach tactics and strategy, which is where these players are primarily failing. (As you mention, what they need are "tips and strategy guides.") Modern games do tend to hold players' hands and provide that kind of assistance, but I wanted Cogmind to be more about closely observing the world to figure out how to survive.

That said, it's easy to be overwhelmed because there is a lot going on, on multiple levels, so it does seems to take a more dedicated, relatively skilled player to learn quickly enough how to survive the early game, or someone who just goes and reads a list of tips from an outside source, like our beginner's guides here :P

On my list of features under consideration is an in-game tips/strategy help system, but I'm reluctant to add it because it ruins the atmosphere I want to create,
and more or less the same results can be achieved by reading an outside guide. (Note the in-game tutorial is for mechanic purposes only.)

I could also add a basic survive guide as an early section of the manual itself, and suggest players who are having trouble read that (it could even include some spoilers and a spoiler warning). The tutorial messages could mention it as well, after a number of early deaths. This is the first thing I'd try, as it's the least intrusive.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 06:35:48 PM by Kyzrati »
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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 09:23:58 PM »

We could crowd-source some tutorials or crowd-source a community guide to starting out in Cogmind.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2017, 01:59:35 AM »

Yeah I'm sure eventually on Steam with more players that will be quite effective, as it's what other games do as well. Not everyone guesses (or notices) there are already some decent simple guides here and linked from other places. I'm pretty familiar with the fundamental areas players are having trouble with, so it'll be easy to come up with a quick list for the manual and will start with that next version.

And I believe that once players who do need help internalize a few simple strategies they'll be able to get a lot further by continuing to improve skills on their own. At least that's what we've seen so far...
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Kyzrati

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 12:05:28 AM »

Step 1 is in progress... "Survival Tips"
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DDarkray

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2017, 06:31:18 AM »

From what I have seen in a few LP videos, there are a few things I noticed which could be addressed in the tutorial message log.

1) Some people don't really understand the use of matter. It's true that you can always right-click it, but for some reason, it's not really considered an "item", so people don't really think that you can examine it. I think a tutorial message explaining the use of matter would be helpful.

2) Sometimes a player can be really confused if they're carrying an item that costs a lot of energy, and didn't think a particular item would cost so much energy. As a result, they couldn't move or attack or even equip an engine anymore. A tutorial message pointing this out would be appreciated.

3) While examining "heat" stat of an item, it doesn't explain what heat can do. I think it would be great to have a small description saying that high heat is bad.

4) Chain-reaction explosion is really cool, but it's often not understood as to why it happens. I think it's sufficient to have the log could mention that an EM weapon hit the power source and triggered chain-reaction.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 06:35:38 AM by DDarkray »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 07:01:43 AM »

1) Some people don't really understand the use of matter. It's true that you can always right-click it, but for some reason, it's not really considered an "item", so people don't really think that you can examine it. I think a tutorial message explaining the use of matter would be helpful.
Yeah, I can see that, and it's a very core item so the redundancy would be worth it.

2) Sometimes a player can be really confused if they're carrying an item that costs a lot of energy, and didn't think a particular item would cost so much energy. As a result, they couldn't move or attack or even equip an engine anymore. A tutorial message pointing this out would be appreciated.
This one I'm not as sure about if only because it's rather hard to detect effectively, and also borders on the side of giving strategy advice which the tutorial intentionally avoids. It would be more appropriate if I added that strategy-related help system built to detect changing situations and make suggestions, though that would be rather involved and not something I want to invest in in the near term.

3) While examining "heat" stat of an item, it doesn't explain what heat can do. I think it would be great to have a small description saying that high heat is bad.
Excellent idea! Will do.

4) Chain-reaction explosion is really cool, but it's often not understood as to why it happens. I think it's sufficient to have the log could mention that an EM weapon hit the power source and triggered chain-reaction.
Nah that's intentionally something left for the player to figure out. It's not vital information in any way, so better left to discovery. (Though players who investigate their EM weapon context help will of course learn this more quickly :P)
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DDarkray

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 07:52:44 AM »

Quote
This one I'm not as sure about if only because it's rather hard to detect effectively, and also borders on the side of giving strategy advice which the tutorial intentionally avoids. It would be more appropriate if I added that strategy-related help system built to detect changing situations and make suggestions, though that would be rather involved and not something I want to invest in in the near term.

I can understand about not giving strategic advices, but being in a state of "not being able to do anything" can leave a really bad taste, because they may conclude that the only way to continue is to restart the game.

You can probably make an indirect strategic advice by mentioning that "you can toggle on and off power, propulsion, utility, and weapon equipment using the Cycle button" at that particular moment.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 07:54:20 AM by DDarkray »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 08:02:25 AM »

Yeah, it could be indirect like that, but it's still somewhat difficult to detect when it really matters as there are a lot of relevant situations.

An even more indirect method that fits more with the tutorial approach would be to warn them as soon as they attach and activate such a high-energy part, for example the ECM. Then they'll know to look out for it, or at least when the time comes that they're out of energy, they'll have a prior explanation as to why that may have come to pass.

Too late to add into the game now before the Steam launch, in any case, but that sounds like a good candidate for a new tutorial message in the next release.

(Note: Also perhaps some kind of warning when per-turn energy drain is clearly in the negative and will run out in X turns unless something is toggled or the situation changes.)
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DDarkray

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2017, 08:21:32 AM »

I also want to recommend mentioning the Wait button somewhere, so that a player knows that he has to wait to regain energy (which also prevents a player from doing anything if they don't know this command).

Too late to add into the game now before the Steam launch, in any case, but that sounds like a good candidate for a new tutorial message in the next release.

That's unfortunate, but I'm sure they can just ask for help online.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2017, 08:24:48 AM »

Ah yeah, something about the wait command would be good. It could be mentioned as part of the energy recovery situation, but it does have it's other uses... No other explicit situation where it would be extremely appropriate?

Edit: Actually the no-energy-to-move scenario is an okay argument for having the autoWait config setting to on by default... Then if they try to move it just waits to recover instead. Doesn't do a very good job of teaching the player though, so probably better to just leave it off.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 08:27:58 AM by Kyzrati »
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DDarkray

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2017, 08:38:39 AM »

There aren't many other situations where you can be in a state of not being able to do anything. One situation I can think of is if a falling debris collapsed on you, destroying your mining weapons and leaving you completely surrounded by walls with no way to get out. It's pretty specific though.

I also remember an experience where one person hid within a destroyed wall, and the. an engineer came up and sealed off the opening, trapping the player. That was pretty funny. :D
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Kyzrati

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2017, 09:11:41 AM »

Yeah the trapped situations are fine as is.

Technically the cave-in event in the Mines should almost always dig the player out eventually, plus there's the derelict that warns about carrying a Mining Laser for that reason.

Any time the player truly gets stuck surrounded by earth or walls early on without a way out could be considered funny roguelike business, and it'll probably only happen once unless they're totally careless later on :)

(I can see how it could be cause for some confusion for first-timers, but not sure that really needs to be addressed specifically. In any case, with Steam we'll have more fresh players interacting with the game and can get a better sense of what's important.)
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DDarkray

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2017, 09:54:08 AM »

I think it's ok to let the players be trapped by walls. If it's from falling debris, the player will obviously know what caused it and understand that digging through walls isn't always a good idea. As for being trapped by engineer, the log will mention "an engineer built a wall" message, but I'm not sure if that's the case if an engineer is outside of view. If the log doesn't produce this message, then I'm sure it will be confusing.

Quote
Technically the cave-in event in the Mines should almost always dig the player out eventually, plus there's the derelict that warns about carrying a Mining Laser for that reason.

I don't think I've ever encountered that sort of event. If the cave-in event does totally trap the player from movement, knowing the Wait command would be useful. (Because you know, some players will ignore the derelict warning)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 09:55:39 AM by DDarkray »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2017, 06:23:11 PM »

Heh, in the end just about any given thing will be ignored by a portion of players. Plenty of tutorial messages go unread, too (although I believe more are being read since I extended their flash duration to be somewhat annoyingly long :P). The only way to ensure they read messages is via really intrusive stuff like modal pop-up boxes, but I never wanted to go that far because it ruins the rest of the experience.
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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2017, 01:57:30 PM »

I am a new player.

I really like that there is no hand holding. Other Roguelikes get you invested in your character to the point you get increasingly frustrated when you die.
(Telegard - rolling up a character for half and hour and then die on level 2)

In this, I am invested in the game - I want out...not invested in the vehicle getting me out.
I am more interested in discovering how it works as I go, taking that fog away would diminish the investment greatly.
I am invested in reading data sheets on the items I find.

For 99% of the games I own (I have owned a computer since 1979 - trash80) I need and want a tutorial.
This is the exception to the rule. I think "help" would take away a great part of the fun I have with this.

I am actively avoiding guides that are listing all the items available. I want to find them myself and have that "OoOoOoOoO" moment as I figure out what to do with this newly found part.

The ONLY portion that needs to be explained are the controls - what key do I press to...
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Re: Improving the Tutorial for New Players
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2017, 03:54:46 AM »

Thanks for your input Stilgar :)
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