Topic: Alpha 9 Discussions [SPOILER VERSION] (Read 12338 times)

Kyzrati · « **on:** June 07, 2016, 07:00:12 PM »

Use this thread for general feedback and discussion about the most recent release, if you want to talk about something that you don't feel warrants a dedicated thread.

This is the open spoiler version, for discussions where you plan to talk about spoilery content and don't want to bother with spoiler tagging. Do not read this thread if you want to avoid spoilers! For non-spoiler discussion, feel free to use the non-spoiler discussion thread here.

Alpha 9 release notes and changelog.

Sherlockkat · « **Reply #1 on:** June 07, 2016, 09:13:31 PM »

Just finished my first alpha 9 run. No crashes this time

.

The patch-notes said that the Data miner hack had a use now. So, of course, I felt obliged to risk my life diving through the lower cave map hunting for the Data miner. I did find him and got the pwd. I also had a run in with Zhirov as I had to visit both the upper caves map in order to find the Warlord. Finally, ran into the Warlord in -4/Upper caves. I tried to enter the god mode hack into the terminal near it, even though I was informed that it was fake. Didn't work. I looked around, found some terminals with info in it. I looked around and didn't find much in the way of loot. I found a secret backdoor leading out of the Warlord map and saw the ongoing MAIN.C invasion. Thought I would hang around and watch and that got me killed :p.

I am going to have to visit the Warlord again to make sure that I hadn't missed anything. I also need to go in as a combat build and help the Warlord's forces against the invaders and see what happens if I help them beat it. I also have a sneaking suspicion (well, I mean the warlord literally mentions it) that the Data-miner hack might be useful in the later floors when the Warlord does bring in the real god-mode.

Fabrication changes: They feel good. I didn't get to play with them that much, but did fabricate a 2 sets of flight units in -7. They came in handy as I had all my flight propulsion blown off in storage and before the fabrication changes, that's usually when the game ends. Finding flight propulsion in a reliable confrontation-free manner early on is a matter of luck. Need to do more experiments with fabrication, but it acted as a nice curve filler in this game.

Flight changes: I was able to stack 4xdiametric drive along with a couple of basic flight units without having to fight serious heat/energy issues. (edit: I just realized that the alien artifact gave me +20 to heat dissipation. So that's probably why I was able to stack those high level flight units with ease) So, that felt good. It did feel a bit dodgy when you are running around with less than 3 flight units and I kinda need to relearn when to dive enemies as you don't move as fast. It didn't feel all that different though. Will report after I do more runs.

Spoiler: scoresheet (click to show/hide)

Edit: Ooh. I did a trojan(broadcast) hack in a garrison this time. It was kinda cool getting locekd out of a terminal and seeing the investigation squad dispatched from a nearby location. Handy for identifying garrisons. It is pretty easy to pull that hack off too. Must have a high chance of success.

Edit 2: Was the map-generation algorithm for wastes tweaked? They feel different now.

Kyzrati · « **Reply #2 on:** June 07, 2016, 09:39:51 PM »

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 07, 2016, 09:13:31 PM

Just finished my first alpha 9 run. No crashes this time .

For a moment I always fear reading your first post, which is always quick to come after a new release and tends to force me to spring into action with some hotfix for an oversight

. Whew (so far).

That's quite a long exploration route you took already!

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 07, 2016, 09:13:31 PM

Thought I would hang around and watch and that got me killed :p.

It's safest to watch/help from the main entrance where they have more defenses, but I wouldn't recommend sticking around for too long either way

It's very worth visiting Warlord's base for a number of reasons you'll eventually discover.

I probably should've mentioned in the notes that the Data Miner gives you a second code as well now, over at his terminals which you're probably mostly ignoring now because half of them were just lore before. There's a new entry.

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 07, 2016, 09:13:31 PM

Fabrication changes: They feel good. I didn't get to play with them that much, but did fabricate a 2 sets of flight units in -7. They came in handy as I had all my flight propulsion blown off in storage and before the fabrication changes, that's usually when the game ends. Finding flight propulsion in a reliable confrontation-free manner early on is a matter of luck. Need to do more experiments with fabrication, but it acted as a nice curve filler in this game.

That was my feeling so far, too. I've only done a couple real playtests so far, but while it didn't feel so reliable that it was OP, it could provide some occasional assistance to fill those holes, as intended. Many more games will be needed to see if further balance changes are necessary.

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 07, 2016, 09:13:31 PM

Edit: Ooh. I did a trojan(broadcast) hack in a garrison this time. It was kinda cool getting locekd out of a terminal and seeing the investigation squad dispatched from a nearby location. Handy for identifying garrisons. It is pretty easy to pull that hack off too. Must have a high chance of success.

70%!

Sherlockkat · « **Reply #3 on:** June 10, 2016, 03:27:23 PM »

Erm. So, I saw the warlord prototype stash entry in the Data miner cave. I forgot to jot down the password as I am used to scrolling through the log to find pwds. I am in front of the Warlord stash now and I am wondering if there is anyway to get access to the stash. I also think there should be some way to look up the pwds without having to write em down. Missing out on loot this way kinda sucks.

Also, I just found a stash of vortex rifles. Looking fwd to use them.

edit: Just won that game. -2/Research was fun. I saw a hero and a troll and a fireman and a dragon and whatnot. (edit: I like the warlord and his minions. They are a cheerful bunch

) I must have missed god-mode as I was in full tryhard mode and going for the win. The thing that sealed that game was a huge cache of Mak Hacking suites that I found in one of those caves. Pretty low score though. But that's because I took pretty long winded route and flight got nerfed. So, I was moving much slower on average compared to previous alphas.

Fab system feels really good. I don't think it's overpowered. There is quite a bit of strategy involved, especially when trying to craft high-tier items as you very pressed for time. Does your alert level take a hit if you fabricate too many things? I think I fabricated a couple of flight units and a bunch of power sources. They quarantined the local matter stores in response and a few turns later an assault squad got called in. Eeks.

Flight units: Stacking late-game flight units is really viable now. I *think* it is worth the speed hit. I do think it is worth rescaling the speed bonus for a win now that flight has been rebalanced. I also like that there several branch strategies evolving for speed builds. Zhirov, Data-miner (if you swing at him) and Warlord are all beneficial. Zhirov gives you that power/heat dissipation buff which is great for stacking flight units. Swinging at the Data-miner provides valuable map data. Warlord makes late-game a bit more easier. Zion is cool but a bit meh. That might change once the deep cave branch is open.

Spoiler: scoresheet (click to show/hide)

Kyzrati · « **Reply #4 on:** June 10, 2016, 07:23:55 PM »

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 10, 2016, 03:27:23 PM

Erm. So, I saw the warlord prototype stash entry in the Data miner cave. I forgot to jot down the password as I am used to scrolling through the log to find pwds. I am in front of the Warlord stash now and I am wondering if there is anyway to get access to the stash.

Yeah, 1) that should really have been mirrored to the log, and 2) this will be done at some point:

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 10, 2016, 03:27:23 PM

I also think there should be some way to look up the pwds without having to write em down. Missing out on loot this way kinda sucks.

I just hadn't gotten to it yet since it hasn't been very important before, given the small number of codes and your general proximity to where they were used anyway (plus all those were in dialogue and therefore going to the log, where you could reference them).

Sorry about that! I'll definitely be exploring a solution for Alpha 10. Good thing you managed to win anyway--first win of Alpha 9! \o/

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 10, 2016, 03:27:23 PM

Does your alert level take a hit if you fabricate too many things? I think I fabricated a couple of flight units and a bunch of power sources. They quarantined the local matter stores in response and a few turns later an assault squad got called in. Eeks.

Yeah they'll not be nice if you're found fabricating too many things too quickly. It's a pretty big hit. There are some Trojans to help with that.

And the score sheet now contains a list of everything you fabricated, and where, so we can see what you built

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 10, 2016, 03:27:23 PM

I do think it is worth rescaling the speed bonus for a win now that flight has been rebalanced.

Good point! I'll need to wait for more data from speed runs to see how long the average one might take, depending on build, so I can set an appropriate new value.

Glad to hear the new flight stats are working out so far.

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 10, 2016, 03:27:23 PM

I also like that there several branch strategies evolving for speed builds. Zhirov, Data-miner (if you swing at him) and Warlord are all beneficial. Zhirov gives you that power/heat dissipation buff which is great for stacking flight units. Swinging at the Data-miner provides valuable map data. Warlord makes late-game a bit more easier. Zion is cool but a bit meh. That might change once the deep cave branch is open.

Zion is really hit or miss, meant mostly for lore and thematic purposes, but its usefulness in the strategic sense is highly dependent on who you find there. There are a couple potential benefits that are quite useful. It isn't done yet, either. You know about the Deep Caves, but there's also another area I want to add with more lore that might also have a longer-term impact on a run. (Still, in general its location is too early in the game to be incredibly and immediately useful like the Upper Cave branches.)

Sherlockkat · « **Reply #5 on:** June 10, 2016, 07:42:11 PM »

Re pwds: Just a suggestion. It might be useful to display the pwds in the left side of the interface that shows up whenever you access the terminal. You know, the bit with all the fluff.

Re Fab: I was trying to hack the schematic for a spectral analyzer somewhere in factory and got a "Data exceeds authorization" message. Are those restrictions necessary now that fabrication ties in directly to the alert level? I mean, I got a assault squad called just for fabricating a lowly flight unit and lgt ion engine.

Kyzrati · « **Reply #6 on:** June 10, 2016, 07:53:32 PM »

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 10, 2016, 07:42:11 PM

Re pwds: Just a suggestion. It might be useful to display the pwds in the left side of the interface that shows up whenever you access the terminal. You know, the bit with all the fluff.

Possibly, although I'd be worried they wouldn't fit if too many were added/found, and it also doesn't really match the kind of stuff that's over there. Maybe it could replace the top-center window instead, which isn't otherwise being used. I'll have to do some mockups and see what works best.

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 10, 2016, 07:42:11 PM

Re Fab: I was trying to hack the schematic for a spectral analyzer somewhere in factory and got a "Data exceeds authorization" message. Are those restrictions necessary now that fabrication ties in directly to the alert level?

Schematics are now the primary gatekeepers to what you can fabricate, so allowing them to be acquired anywhere would make it too easy to game the system to get late-game schematics early on. Find an easy terminal or two after you've discovered a nearby exit or chute, hack it up, and then just make a run for it. Alert level wouldn't matter much at all in that case.

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 10, 2016, 07:42:11 PM

I mean, I got a assault squad called just for fabricating a lowly flight unit and lgt ion engine.

That was just a coincidence. All it does is raise your alert level (and that's only if discovered).

Sherlockkat · « **Reply #7 on:** June 10, 2016, 08:00:03 PM »

Quote

Schematics are now the primary gatekeepers to what you can fabricate, so allowing them to be acquired anywhere would make it too easy to game the system to get late-game schematics early on. Find an easy terminal or two after you've discovered a nearby exit or chute, hack it up, and then just make a run for it. Alert level wouldn't matter much at all in that case.

Fair enough!! That's what I would do

.

Kyzrati · « **Reply #8 on:** June 10, 2016, 08:05:03 PM »

I knew it! (Saved you from yourself

)

That said, on the design side it also keeps the door open to acquiring nice schematics earlier than otherwise possible, via separate means (like an NPC).

Happylisk · « **Reply #9 on:** June 11, 2016, 01:18:34 PM »

Just played a bunch of Alpha 9 runs. The first one got the farthest, but I was basically fleeing semi-naked from -5 until -2, so it was one of those games.

Second game, I got to data miner and I was hoping to try out the new fabrication system. Unfortunately, the only exit in the proximity caves back to the complex was inside a Main.C base, and it was just too heavily guarded.

The 3rd game was the most interesting one. I've actually never been to Cetus or Archives before until now. I found Extension on -5, freed 07, and smooshed the behemoths with him. We killed the Cetus guards, but 07 died in the process. Not before he gave me his code though. Unfortunately, I couldn't successfully hack the locked door, so the code wasn't too helpful.

In archives, I encountered the Zhirov event. Apparently him and his buddies whoop some ass, plant some bombs, and teleport out. That was news to me, and I was sitting around when the bomb went off. Whatever he set us was more than strong enough to instantly kill me.

I love this game.

Kyzrati · « **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2016, 07:24:21 PM »

Quote from: Happylisk on June 11, 2016, 01:18:34 PM

Unfortunately, I couldn't successfully hack the locked door, so the code wasn't too helpful.

You don't need to hack any door to use the code--the machine controls for the fabricator are on a terminal out in the open.

Quote from: Happylisk on June 11, 2016, 01:18:34 PM

In archives, I encountered the Zhirov event. Apparently him and his buddies whoop some ass, plant some bombs, and teleport out. That was news to me, and I was sitting around when the bomb went off. Whatever he set us was more than strong enough to instantly kill me.

I love this game.

Ooh that's only the second time I've heard someone meet Zhirov there

. Doesn't happen so often. I think Decker was the one who found it a while back and made it out.

Happylisk · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2016, 08:45:35 PM »

I used the code on a terminal outside the locked door, and the first time something happened (I think?) but I don't recall the exact message. I tried again and then it said "insufficient resources." Still not sure what the benefit from this code is. I remember other people in the forums posting about this in previous alphas so I'll just dig up some old posts.

As for the Zhirov event, it was a lot of fun to watch. I'd love to get my hands on the weapons they're packing. Out of curiosity, is getting caught in those explosions instant death? I had quite a bit of core and armor when they went off.

e: reading older posts suggests that if I got the "insufficient resources" message, that means the first hack did indeed succeed and give me whatever benefit is supposed to come from it.

I'm tempted to make a seed and repeatedly play it over and over so I know where all the exits are and can focus on exploration...

Kyzrati · « **Reply #12 on:** June 11, 2016, 08:59:19 PM »

Quote from: Happylisk on June 11, 2016, 08:45:35 PM

I used the code on a terminal outside the locked door, and the first time something happened (I think?) but I don't recall the exact message. I tried again and then it said "insufficient resources." Still not sure what the benefit from this code is.

Maybe you didn't have your volume up? There's an audio cue in addition to the text message. (And O7 sort of tells you what it's for, though not the exact effect.) It's an extremely useful benefit. "Insufficient resources" means you had entered it at the correct location and started the process; you just didn't wait around for it to finish

Quote from: Happylisk on June 11, 2016, 08:45:35 PM

As for the Zhirov event, it was a lot of fun to watch. I'd love to get my hands on the weapons they're packing. Out of curiosity, is getting caught in those explosions instant death? I had quite a bit of core and armor when they went off.

No, not instant death, just the second-most powerful explosion in the game (and as you can see there are many...). It's survivable even if you don't make it out in time--Decker got beat up but lived through it. That said, I've already noted here that I should probably tone their damage down (or at least test it again), because that scene was originally added when victims engulfed in multiple overlapping explosions would only take damage from one of them. That was a bug I found later, so that Archives situation has become a lot more deadly!

Happylisk · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2016, 05:43:03 AM »

My audio was off to spare the lady from all the "pew pew pews" as she puts it. I booked it out of Cetus cause things were getting hot. I'll go back there and stick around next time

Kyzrati · « **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2016, 06:03:21 AM »

Haha, got it. I just use headphones

. I used to be real big on using my nice stereo speakers, but once they kicked the bucket after about 12-13 years, I switched to a fairly good headset and got hooked on the ability to play/listen to anything I want without considering who else is around. Then of course there's the advantage of drowning out everything else to focus on work (sometimes I don't bother playing any music--they're just on my head

).

Happylisk · « **Reply #15 on:** June 12, 2016, 10:25:19 AM »

My most lore-heavy run yet. It went Material --> Factory --> Zion --> More factory --> Zhirov --> extension --> Research (dead on -2 with a score of 18k). I would have gone into Cetus, but 07 splatted against the behemoths. I'm surprised I got as far as -2, but good launchers can (temporarily) make up for holes in your build. The security level got to 4, though, and I was getting two ARC's for every programmer dispatch. Should've dipped into Waste on -4. Ah well.

I really like Zion. Very smart to have the most important robots stationary. I found my first 4 slot weapon, the storm cannon or whatever it's called. Great weapon, it was one or two shotting everything in factory. I tried to make a build out of it (more heat dissipation than usual, rushed a 3 power source, got weapon shielding), but much to my disappointment I found out that you can't repair or scanalyze the weapon. While I think being able to fabricate the weapon much be too much, you might want to consider allowing it to be repaired. If no-reparing is intentional behavior, I would suggest doubling the integrity of the weapon. It's worth noting that other derelict weaponry can be scanned and repaired, but I guess Main.C has seen all that stuff before.

I also found a random derelict who gave me a code to hack a behemoth. I imagine you need a datajack in order to pull that off?

First time in Zhirov's base. The alien artifacts and schematics were handy. Unfortunately, I picked up both alien artifacts and then forgot which was which. I wanted to equip up the heat dissipation one but equipped the teleport one and wasted it. I can see lots of new players wasting thatartifact the first time they find it. I'm not sure what do to about that (maybe a confirmation prompt, maybe color coding artifacts (blue for things that modify you permanently, green for consumables, etc)), or if anything should be done, but it's worth noting.

I'm very impressed how the branches are fitting into this game. At this point the only branch I haven't visited is Warlord. The game reminds me of a fusion of the best parts of ADOM with DCSS (with robots and lasers).

Sherlockkat · « **Reply #16 on:** June 12, 2016, 12:14:51 PM »

There is a typo(?) in the storm laser description. "..They will twice.." should be "..They will think twice..".

Happylisk · « **Reply #17 on:** June 12, 2016, 06:17:12 PM »

Typo in an the speech from one of the Zion dudes. He's talking about Main.C dispatches if I recall, and says "to great" instead of "too great."

Also, is there any way you can change the self destruct interupter to work while it's sitting in your inventory? My testing indicates you have to drop it on the ground for it to work. That's kind of annoying, and this last run I forgot to pick it up... womp.

Decker · « **Reply #18 on:** June 12, 2016, 09:47:19 PM »

I played the Spooky Spelunking seed. I'm posting here since my post contains many spoilers.

I wanted to see Warlord if possible. I didn't know where he was so I explored everything. I visited Zion on -7. I got my vision corrupted, that was pretty funny. I didn't find a way to open the sealed barrier. I guess it's still unimplemented. I also got a password to hack a Behemoth from a terminal (?). I didn't get to use it, and I don't know how it should be done. I'll experiment again, if I can refrain from murdering the dimwit who gives the password.

I found Data Miner on -6, and Zhirov on -5. On -4 I hacked Access(Branch). I found an upper cave exit but no Extension exit. I note that it's possible for the player to have a password for MAIN.C but no way to access it (except through chute traps perhaps), which feels a bit weird.

I reached Warlord and had a nice chat. I like the guy. There is a locked door in Warlord's room but there's no obvious way to open it. There was an assault from MAIN.C with what appears to be an infinite stream of robots. I will admit that I found the experience frustrating. Warlord says you're welcome to join him once he's finished with his experiment but it's not clear what the experiment is and what you are supposed to do. I killed tons of robots, retreated, then I punched through the walls with my launcher stack, past the sealed barrier that leads nowhere (?). There was a dense wall of hostiles between me and the proximity exit. I got bored and suicided.

Behemoths feel much more powerful now that they are immune to criticals. The hover units seem balanced. Those exp. gravmag from Zhirov are nice. I wasn't running a speed build so I don't know yet how the late-game flight units behave. The confirmation for the processor swap works great. The message when a patrol gets dispatched is very nice, too. I never knew that attacking an engineer could create a dispatch.

I tried fabrication and I didn't like it. The waiting time is quite long and holding pause means that you get sucker-punched when an hostile pops in. It's probably more viable in Materials, since there is no corruption there and no programmer dispatches. On the bright side, it doesn't look unbalanced given the long wait time and the low base success rate. I vote for the following patch.

Code: [Select]

if (!strcmp(player_name, "Decker")) wait_time = 0;

Seed log.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sherlockkat · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2016, 12:43:45 AM »

Kyzrati hinted that there is a thingy that you can do down at Zhirov's which no one's found out yet. So, obviously, I went down there hoping to trash his lab and find out what it is. So, here goes:

Spoiler: super secret lore spoiler? (click to show/hide)

Kyzrati · « **Reply #20 on:** June 13, 2016, 08:10:42 AM »

Whew, finally got to this thread! Was out for the entire day since I've got a lot of stuff to do before leaving and today's busyness included my one-month shoulder checkup. Good news: No surgery!

Quote from: Happylisk on June 12, 2016, 10:25:19 AM

I really like Zion. Very smart to have the most important robots stationary. I found my first 4 slot weapon, the storm cannon or whatever it's called. Great weapon, it was one or two shotting everything in factory. I tried to make a build out of it (more heat dissipation than usual, rushed a 3 power source, got weapon shielding), but much to my disappointment I found out that you can't repair or scanalyze the weapon. While I think being able to fabricate the weapon much be too much, you might want to consider allowing it to be repaired. If no-reparing is intentional behavior, I would suggest doubling the integrity of the weapon. It's worth noting that other derelict weaponry can be scanned and repaired, but I guess Main.C has seen all that stuff before.

Yeah, the Storm Laser is a so-called "unique weapon" you can never find among randomized loot, and none of those can be repaired/scanalyzed/fabricated because from a mechanics perspective they're too powerful.

It already has 450 integrity which is nine times that of most weapons at that depth, but also occupies four slots with standard coverage, meaning it's four times as likely to be hit. So that boils down to it lasting about twice as long as the average weapon, unless you choose to protect it with armor, shields, or more specifically weapon shielding.

I'm not sure I want unique parts to be repairable (and definitely not fabricatable), since under the new machine mechanics it would be even easier to use them almost indefinitely. That one in particular, for example, isn't really meant to last into the late game, since by that point you could have even better unique weapons available to you. Maybe wait until there are more of those in the game and revisit this issue then? (I'm sure it will come up again

)

Quote from: Happylisk on June 12, 2016, 10:25:19 AM

I also found a random derelict who gave me a code to hack a behemoth. I imagine you need a datajack in order to pull that off?

Yep.

Quote from: Happylisk on June 12, 2016, 10:25:19 AM

First time in Zhirov's base. The alien artifacts and schematics were handy. Unfortunately, I picked up both alien artifacts and then forgot which was which. I wanted to equip up the heat dissipation one but equipped the teleport one and wasted it. I can see lots of new players wasting thatartifact the first time they find it. I'm not sure what do to about that (maybe a confirmation prompt, maybe color coding artifacts (blue for things that modify you permanently, green for consumables, etc)), or if anything should be done, but it's worth noting.

Worth noting, yes. A different color might be problematic to implement because that would require dividing them into two separate item types. Though color is a pretty good idea here, it still wouldn't help brand new players much. That said, I don't really mind the Reconstructor being wasted the first time it's found.

Currently the only way to know/remember what each one does is to identify them by their art... (which unlike other items, you're allowed to see even before the artifact is identified), so I think they generally take some meta learning as is to get the most out of them. Only a small minority have an effect that would be considered "wasted" if used at the wrong time, though. I'm not claiming that system is perfect, however--I do think it's a slight issue, but not one I would want to modify right now.

Quote from: Happylisk on June 12, 2016, 10:25:19 AM

I'm very impressed how the branches are fitting into this game. At this point the only branch I haven't visited is Warlord. The game reminds me of a fusion of the best parts of ADOM with DCSS (with robots and lasers).

Glad you're liking it--it's fun fitting all these parts of the world, pieces of the puzzle, into the bigger picture

Thanks for the typo notice--wrote too much text in too short a time on that stretch xD

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 12, 2016, 12:14:51 PM

There is a typo(?) in the storm laser description. "..They will twice.." should be "..They will think twice..".

Hm, maybe you missed a word due to how it wrapped? (Or maybe the wrapping somehow screwed up?) I see that line in the game as "Even if you don't hit your target, it'll probably scare the hell out of them and they'll think twice before messing with you." (And here I'm referring to the dialogue with its creator, since it has no description of its own.)

Quote from: Happylisk on June 12, 2016, 06:17:12 PM

Also, is there any way you can change the self destruct interupter to work while it's sitting in your inventory? My testing indicates you have to drop it on the ground for it to work. That's kind of annoying, and this last run I forgot to pick it up... womp.

No, because as you'll learn it is not an infinite-use item. Dropping it to the ground activates it, and picking it up deactivates it. It runs out of power eventually. (Not great because you don't know exactly how much time it has remaining... I'd have to hard code that if it were to be shown, because it uses a scripted effect which is not part of the normal game code :/)

Quote from: Decker on June 12, 2016, 09:47:19 PM

I'll experiment again, if I can refrain from murdering the dimwit who gives the password.

Hahahahahaha--got to you, did he?

Quote from: Decker on June 12, 2016, 09:47:19 PM

I note that it's possible for the player to have a password for MAIN.C but no way to access it (except through chute traps perhaps), which feels a bit weird.

Not sure what you're referring to here. Password for MAIN.C? No way to access what? (Also, there's always an exit to Extension, somewhere.)

Quote from: Decker on June 12, 2016, 09:47:19 PM

There is a locked door in Warlord's room but there's no obvious way to open it.

Not telling. Someone else here (or in the world itself

) can tell you.

Quote from: Decker on June 12, 2016, 09:47:19 PM

There was an assault from MAIN.C with what appears to be an infinite stream of robots. I will admit that I found the experience frustrating. Warlord says you're welcome to join him once he's finished with his experiment but it's not clear what the experiment is and what you are supposed to do. I killed tons of robots, retreated, then I punched through the walls with my launcher stack, past the sealed barrier that leads nowhere (?). There was a dense wall of hostiles between me and the proximity exit. I got bored and suicided.

With that event I intend to go a little further and hint that you're supposed to get out of there as soon as you think you can. It wasn't easy to fit that in in a good thematic way without more testing that I didn't have time for unless I postponed the Alpha 9 release, so I decided to first see how different players reacted to that event as is, and will be making adjustments!

Some players figured that out right away, and another group was crushed to a pulp the first time xD

(With regard to what the experiment is, though, that he tells you in the previous sentence.)

Quote from: Decker on June 12, 2016, 09:47:19 PM

Behemoths feel much more powerful now that they are immune to criticals.

I think they're properly scary now, too. Definitely not the pushovers they were (including also the upgraded integrity). I still want to redo some of their loadouts, because I found the Titan overheating way too easily, and the Cyclops is underpowered because I insisted on giving it a single weapon to live up to its name

(That was back when the weapons were slower to fire, so it made some sense, but now it's way outgunned by anyone with a multi-weapon volley.)

Quote from: Decker on June 12, 2016, 09:47:19 PM

I tried fabrication and I didn't like it. The waiting time is quite long and holding pause means that you get sucker-punched when an hostile pops in. It's probably more viable in Materials, since there is no corruption there and no programmer dispatches. On the bright side, it doesn't look unbalanced given the long wait time and the low base success rate. I vote for the following patch.

Code: [Select]
if (!strcmp(player_name, "Decker")) wait_time = 0;

HAHA. I can expect you wouldn't like it since you were the primary (nearly sole) proponent of zero-time builds. You can get pretty fast build times with better hackware + high-tier Fabricators and/or the right Trojan, but to expect that a non-hacker will be able to do a lot with it is asking too much. I'm open to shortening them further, but from what I've seen and heard so far I think they're in a pretty good place right now.

Quote from: Sherlockkat on June 13, 2016, 12:43:45 AM

So, here goes:

It's fun to read Sherlockkat's theorizing

Decker · « **Reply #21 on:** June 13, 2016, 08:50:33 AM »

Quote

Not sure what you're referring to here. Password for MAIN.C? No way to access what? (Also, there's always an exit to Extension, somewhere.)

I was referring to the exit to Extension. That's the point of my comment: there wasn't an exit to Extension on -4 after I visited Zhirov on -5. I did Access(Branch) on -4 to verify that. Perhaps there was an Extension exit on -5, though.

Quote

HAHA. I can expect you wouldn't like it since you were the primary (nearly sole) proponent of zero-time builds. You can get pretty fast build times with better hackware + high-tier Fabricators and/or the right Trojan, but to expect that a non-hacker will be able to do a lot with it is asking too much. I'm open to shortening them further, but from what I've seen and heard so far I think they're in a pretty good place right now.

I think you got my meaning about the sucker punches, but I'll clarify just in case. I'm not arguing for a non-hacker to get as much (or anything) from a fab, or for shortening the wait time. I'm arguing for the complete removal of waiting as a mechanic.

The issue here is that the game punishes you for waiting though no fault of your own, due to UI issues. Every time you hold pause, there is a risk that an unseen nasty comes around and gets free shots at you. As a player, the only defense you have against that is hitting pause, checking that there's no one in sight, then hit pause again. *pause* *check* *pause* *check* ... repeat 100 times. This is incredibly tedious.

I thought long and hard to a technical solution you could implement to mitigate the problem and my tentative conclusion is that there isn't any that really works. A long pause command will have issues with sensors (true/false positives). Alternatively, a confirmation ("Did you really mean to pause? There's an hostile that you could shoot at right now.") will also have issues with false positives (you may be inserting a pause in the middle of combat to drain heat / refill energy). In general, so-called "intelligent" commands aren't.

This isn't so much a problem in other roguelikes because you can generally afford to shrug off interruptions. Not so in Cogmind. Every shot costs you.

To sum it up, the entire point of waiting being in the game is based on the premise that dealing with interruptions is fun. But there's no way to wait safely or efficiently. So it's not fun. It's a pity because the rest of the fabrication mechanics is great fun.

Kyzrati · « **Reply #22 on:** June 13, 2016, 07:46:35 PM »

Quote from: Decker on June 13, 2016, 08:50:33 AM

Quote
Not sure what you're referring to here. Password for MAIN.C? No way to access what? (Also, there's always an exit to Extension, somewhere.)
I was referring to the exit to Extension. That's the point of my comment: there wasn't an exit to Extension on -4 after I visited Zhirov on -5. I did Access(Branch) on -4 to verify that. Perhaps there was an Extension exit on -5, though.

But why do you need an exit to Extension after visiting Zhirov? It's certainly possible for Zhirov's lab to appear closer to the surface than Extension, but he doesn't give you anything that has anything to do with Extension. Or have I forgotten something there?

Re: Waiting. Ah right, we talked about that aspect of it before.

Yeah there's a lack of a good UI solution if you're looking for perfection assuming you want to stay completely stationary while you wait--an alternative approach if you're worried about someone spotting you while you don't have sensors is to use the autorun command to pace, since it stops as soon as a hostile is sighted.

That said, what I do for fabrication is use that time to explore the local area to both scout and collect parts rather than sit around and waste it (and of course if you're building robots you can just leave the area and they'll join up with you immediately on completion

)

There was also the whole "tactical overwatch" discussion (actually multiple discussions) about allowing you to automatically wait fractions of turns right up until someone is about to fire, and take your turn then, though this gets quite complicated...

With regard to fabrication specifically, it is so rarely used compared to the rest of a run that I don't think it taking slightly longer in real time terms is an issue worth completely removing the strategic implications of turn costs. On a several-hours-long combat run (or longer) you'll maybe spend maybe a few minutes fabricating.

Decker · « **Reply #23 on:** June 13, 2016, 08:31:55 PM »

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But why do you need an exit to Extension after visiting Zhirov? It's certainly possible for Zhirov's lab to appear closer to the surface than Extension, but he doesn't give you anything that has anything to do with Extension. Or have I forgotten something there?

You're not missing anything

There is kind of an association between MAIN.C (in Extension) and Zhirov, since the two are related, and you do meet Zhirov in the Extension branch too. But yeah, in principle there is no reason why you couldn't wreck MAIN.C on -5 then visit Zhirov on -4. I'm assuming here that Zion/Data Miner and Warlord/Zhirov have no particular relation to the incoming Factory level (given that the branch name is the same).

Since Extension is tough, ideally it's better to wait for -4 before visiting. More core integrity and slots. But since it's not guaranteed to spawn, I guess it's better to go for it as soon as you have the password.

Quote

With regard to fabrication specifically, it is so rarely used compared to the rest of a run that I don't think it taking slightly longer in real time terms is an issue worth completely removing the strategic implications of turn costs. On a several-hours-long combat run (or longer) you'll maybe spend maybe a few minutes fabricating.

That's a reasonable view. Some players want no wait time, some do. It's not possible to please everyone.

Given that waiting is here to stay, perhaps a dumb version of the long pause command would make sense. Ignore sensors, wake on hostile spotted, incoming shot or machine time out. Not ideal, but as you say, there's no perfect solution here. It's faster than autorun, and safer. Corruption means that you shoot unexpectedly, so it's best to wait as far as you can (or swap in less damaging weapons while you wait, if you have them).

I agree that it's usually better to scout around while you wait, but it really depends. Maybe you already know where the exit or chute trap is and it's preferable to play it safe.

Kyzrati · « **Reply #24 on:** June 13, 2016, 08:56:26 PM »

Quote from: Decker on June 13, 2016, 08:31:55 PM

Quote
But why do you need an exit to Extension after visiting Zhirov? It's certainly possible for Zhirov's lab to appear closer to the surface than Extension, but he doesn't give you anything that has anything to do with Extension. Or have I forgotten something there?
You're not missing anything There is kind of an association between MAIN.C (in Extension) and Zhirov, since the two are related, and you do meet Zhirov in the Extension branch too. But yeah, in principle there is no reason why you couldn't wreck MAIN.C on -5 then visit Zhirov on -4.

There's no direct association in terms of gameplay, though (or even lore or story--Zhirov doesn't talk about Extension, or give any information about it, and vice versa).

Strategically speaking I think a combat build is better off preferring Extension as early as possible (not that you can control it), because then assuming you can build those allies there you can steamroll your way to the late game.

(And by the way: You can't meet Zhirov in both the Extension branch and his lab, even if you do visit both--he's only in one of the two locations.)

Quote from: Decker on June 13, 2016, 08:31:55 PM

But since it's not guaranteed to spawn, I guess it's better to go for it as soon as you have the password.

Still don't know what password you're referring to! The only password that relates to Extension is found within Extension itself.

Quote from: Decker on June 13, 2016, 08:31:55 PM

Given that waiting is here to stay, perhaps a dumb version of the long pause command would make sense. Ignore sensors, wake on hostile spotted, incoming shot or machine time out. Not ideal, but as you say, there's no perfect solution here. It's faster than autorun, and safer.

Too bad a simple feature like this would be a lot of work, and prone to bugs, otherwise I'd add it in a heartbeat. As is it's going to have to be rather low priority.

Quote from: Decker on June 13, 2016, 08:31:55 PM

Corruption means that you shoot unexpectedly, so it's best to wait as far as you can (or swap in less damaging weapons while you wait, if you have them).

It would be hilarious if you shot the machine before completion xD

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