Grid Sage Forums

Grid Sage Forums

  • April 19, 2024, 10:34:19 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

LINKS: Website | Steam | Wiki

Author Topic: Feature request: Auto-disable  (Read 2941 times)

Gaspard

  • Unaware
  • *
  • Weekly Seed Participant Supported Cogmind Alpha Access 2015-2017 (Prime Tier)
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Feature request: Auto-disable
« on: September 01, 2015, 03:16:50 PM »

There is one thing that killed me/complicated my run where I have the feeling it's not my fault:
Unused part costs!
Simple case: Targeting computer.
When you're not firing a volley and you keep it activated by mistake it quickly piles up to a lot of lost energy.
Other items(like some hacking utilities) can even bring you too very low matter without you noticing.
When not moving, hovering units also waste your energy.
I'm speaking of all these are parts where you have 0 benefits of keeping them on, contrary to say, flight units, because of the dodge bonus.(unless you have more than one)

So I'm requesting a feature because enabling/disabling them all the time is really annoying and can be easily forgotten,
Auto-disable:
Parts that bring no benefits at all will automatically disable themselves.

Sounds reasonable to me, did I miss something?
Logged

Adraius

  • Derelict
  • **
  • Shared a Confirmed Combat Win Participated in the Alpha Challenge 2015 Weekly Seed Participant
  • Posts: 77
    • View Profile
Re: Feature request: Auto-disable
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2015, 09:18:22 PM »

Hacking utilities, for example, have a lot of secondary uses for hacking bots, reprogramming traps, and helping allies resist hacking from Programmers.  The concept is simple, but I think there may be a lot of edge cases on there that make it less straightforward.  It also seems to like like it'd have to hook into the code in quite a few places, so I'm not sure if it's worth the programming hours at this point?

Also, I'm not sure if it's the game's intent so have people constantly flipping parts on and off to get the most benefit - even automatically.  Maybe a better solution would be to have some parts not consume energy/produce heat under certain circumstances, rather than fully disabling the part?
Logged

Kyzrati

  • Administrator
  • True Cogmind
  • *****
  • Posts: 4302
    • View Profile
    • Cogmind
Re: Feature request: Auto-disable
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2015, 10:57:16 PM »

As Adraius says, it's less straightforward than it might seem, because almost any item that has upkeep has been designed to give you potential benefits as long as it's active, even if you're not actively using them at that moment.

Other items(like some hacking utilities) can even bring you too very low matter without you noticing.
Not true. There is no hackware that consumes any energy or matter, by design. (Which is why the game won't even let you turn them off if you wanted to--they and a number of other types of items, e.g. storage, passive armor, power amplifiers, recalibrators, and a ton of other passive stuff, don't have any resource costs and can stay on indefinitely. (Did you mean something else here? There are extremely few items that actually consume matter--were you referring to swapping costs? If so, and you like to swap a lot, that's a different issue and can be overcome with Integration Mediators.)

When not moving, hovering units also waste your energy.
But they can give you a bonus to dodge if you have Maneuvering Thrusters or Reaction Control Systems, which a lot of hovering robots will tend to attach.

I do agree with you on Targeting Computers.

I think the numbers are generally fudgeable enough that you shouldn't usually need to worry about a little extra lost energy to perform well enough. I do occasionally realize the need when things get down to the wire, but that shouldn't be happening around every corner. This is probably a bigger issue for those using hover/flying builds since there is a more delicate mass-energy-heat balance at play.

An auto-disable feature would probably end up being really confusing and annoying most of the time, and would only really apply to a small minority of parts, a few computers and perhaps sensors. What you want on and off at a given time comes down to a lot of situational details and your own tactics at the time.

Also, I'm not sure if it's the game's intent so have people constantly flipping parts on and off to get the most benefit - even automatically.  Maybe a better solution would be to have some parts not consume energy/produce heat under certain circumstances, rather than fully disabling the part?
This is a possible compromise for a minority of items, but then the numbers don't always add up and that is cause for confusion...

For example one exception could be Targeting Computers--they only deduct energy while you're firing, because they don't otherwise do anything for you. This would require a special indicator in the stats, because their energy cost would no longer be considered "upkeep," per se, which is another complication from a UI perspective.

What other parts does this (unquestionably) apply to? All things considered I don't think there are quite so many.
Logged
Josh Ge, Developer - Dev Blog | @GridSageGames | Patreon

Adraius

  • Derelict
  • **
  • Shared a Confirmed Combat Win Participated in the Alpha Challenge 2015 Weekly Seed Participant
  • Posts: 77
    • View Profile
Re: Feature request: Auto-disable
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2015, 12:02:13 AM »

Quote from: Gaspard
Other items(like some hacking utilities) can even bring you too very low matter without you noticing.
Adding what I know - the only utility I've encountered that sucks mass was called a "Quarantine Testbed" or something along those lines; IIRC it let you attach prototypes risk-free, at the expense of 10 energy and 10 mass per turn the device was online.  I also had a bad experience with this utility - I didn't see the mass cost and left it constantly on, like I do with most utilities, and shortly found myself out of mass.

Quote from: Kyzrati
What other parts does this (unquestionably) apply to? All things considered I don't think there are quite so many.
Target Analyzers are another, and the Quarantine Testbed mentioned above would really benefit from being made 'on-benefit-only.'  Maybe Weight Distribution Systems?  ECM is kinda similar, but the player needs to have control over that one I think.  Oh, Maneuvering Thrusters (and the related family of items) should only take energy when actually thrusting - perhaps only once per turn if Cogmind has been targeted, not per-attack, though.  Ditto Cloaking Devices.  Then there's one item I have in my current run... a Dynamic Something Something?  It reduces chance of corruption from EM damage by 50%.

Let me make a better list:

    Target Analyzer
    Armor Analysis Suite
    Melee Analysis Suite
    Focal Shield

    Quarantine Testbed (? - consumes matter to attach prototypes safely)
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (like the Testbed, except only takes energy and has a %chance to avoid harmful effects of bad prototypes)
    System Guard (%chance to avoid negative effects of corruption IIRC?)
    System Backup Module (? - purges corruption)
    Dynamic Something Something (? - reduces chance to gain corruption from EM weapons by 50%)
    Recalibrator
    Component Analyzer (? - identifies an unknown protoype every x turns)

    Cannibalization Unit? (not sure this one has active upkeep)
    Field Recycler? (not sure this one has active upkeep)

    Particle Charger
    Power Amplifier (not sure this one has active upkeep, and even if it does, would you ever want it off?)

    Maneuvering Thrusters
    Cloaking Device

    Weight Distribution System
    Tractor Beam

(EDIT: you know what, many of these may already cost nothing.  I don't know them well enough to know which, though.)

Note that many of the above are item families.  I don't have first-hand experience with a number of those items, so they might not all have active upkeep, but they are all items that are only useful under a specific circumstance that may not always be met.  I also feel I'm missing at least a couple item types (ex. Focal Shield equivalents for other damage types?), but they're escaping me for now.

At first I didn't think there were many, either, but as I kept thinking, more and more occurred to me.  I think part of that is because, frankly, a lot of these items are very situational ones that rarely see much use - when was the last time you attached a Recalibrator?  Anyway, for that sort of item, how hard would be it be to change their active upkeep to expenditure-upon-effect, and have a small readout reflecting that in place of the active upkeep one in those items' stats?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 08:43:36 AM by Adraius »
Logged

Gaspard

  • Unaware
  • *
  • Weekly Seed Participant Supported Cogmind Alpha Access 2015-2017 (Prime Tier)
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Feature request: Auto-disable
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2015, 04:01:36 AM »

Other items(like some hacking utilities) can even bring you too very low matter without you noticing.
Not true. There is no hackware that consumes any energy or matter, by design. (Which is why the game won't even let you turn them off if you wanted to--they and a number of other types of items, e.g. storage, passive armor, power amplifiers, recalibrators, and a ton of other passive stuff, don't have any resource costs and can stay on indefinitely. (Did you mean something else here? There are extremely few items that actually consume matter--were you referring to swapping costs? If so, and you like to swap a lot, that's a different issue and can be overcome with Integration Mediators.)
Sorry for my mistake, I do remember though having a utility you use for 1 turn eating matter, must be the Quarantine Testbed like Adraius said.
Going through Adraius' list I'd remove anything that shields(because you can't predict when being shot).
Basically all items that have use for a specific action only (like shooting or moving) are the problems.


When not moving, hovering units also waste your energy.
But they can give you a bonus to dodge if you have Maneuvering Thrusters or Reaction Control Systems, which a lot of hovering robots will tend to attach.
Well, disabling them all you're still hovering(core propulsion right?), so you get the +5% dodge bonus for Maneuvring Thrusters.(Unless I understood that part wrong :p)

I think Adraius' idea is better than mine, just make them only cost when doing the specific action which the part is made for.
Even when paying attention, going disable A,B,C enable D,E;move one square to be under cover; enable A,B,C, disable D,E; shoot; can quickly get annoying.
Another way to maybe solve this problem would be some UI way to make part groups to enable/disable them all at once.
Logged

zxc

  • Cogmind
  • *****
  • 1st place in the Best Escapes category during Alpha Challenge 2015 1st place in the High Scores category during Alpha Challenge 2015 Shared a Confirmed Combat Win Shared a Confirmed Stealth Win Kyzrati Patron Bug Hunter Participated in the Alpha Challenge 2015 Achievement leader in at least one category during Alpha Challenge 2015 Wiki Contributor Weekly Seed Participant
  • Posts: 726
    • View Profile
Re: Feature request: Auto-disable
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2015, 09:26:41 AM »

Power amplifier does not have active upkeep (it enhances your energy supply) and cannot be disabled anyway.

The thing that's caught me off-guard the most lately has been leaving the Error Protection Suite on for more than a single turn by accident. It eats 10 matter a turn which is insanely harsh when you forget to disable and take it off. I would honestly rather it just prevented one malfunction and then destroyed itself ie one-time use.
Logged

Kyzrati

  • Administrator
  • True Cogmind
  • *****
  • Posts: 4302
    • View Profile
    • Cogmind
Re: Feature request: Auto-disable
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2015, 10:14:47 AM »

(I'm not ignoring this thread. I've just been too busy to get further into it for now--it's a rather big discussion, though it's currently the only remaining thread on my "to discuss" list. I'll get to it.)

Edit: This discussion has been locked and continued in a more recent thread.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 06:13:03 AM by Kyzrati »
Logged
Josh Ge, Developer - Dev Blog | @GridSageGames | Patreon