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Cogmind => Stories => Topic started by: Joshua on October 12, 2017, 05:36:11 AM

Title: When sneaking stops working
Post by: Joshua on October 12, 2017, 05:36:11 AM

So, I snuck (or was railroaded) into a place which it would have been better not to since I couldn't sneak out again.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I will say that I found the background ambience here quite chilling, very effective at raising the tension especially in contrast to the rest of the game which mostly only has machines as background noise.

I do wonder whether the room full of stasis traps works more than once, since I will know to expect it for any run after this one and be able to plan ahead (take explosives, stasis cancellers, alternative propulsion, at least two out of three of which I found while wandering around the last level -- or the hacked army option, which I still have not managed to accomplish). Those traps are really bad when all you have is melee and a mini grenade launcher. The grenade launcher got shot off as soon as I attached it, before I could use it.

Spears are surprisingly effective even this late in the game - I used one to take out a squad of swarmers earlier in this level.

Starting to wonder if the Data Miner's help is intended as help at all, or if it is just another experiment: the doors he unlocks tend to go to dangerous places for a stealth build, though it's understandable if he is meant to open up doors that a combat build wouldn't be able to easily hack through. I wonder if this is one of the ways into the Deep Caves, if DM happens to be before Zion?

I'm also left wondering if an Exp. Sensor Array would not be scrambled like my Lrn. Sensor Array was (I fabricated one in Factory but had to abandon the fab before I could retrieve it).

Is the back door into this place meant to be something you have to cut into? On the map it seemed to be isolated and even had a patrol running back and forth along a hallway with I think two rooms attached. I (unintentionally) cut through a wall and ended up trapped in this area of the map, making C my only option.

Score sheet:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cogmind - Beta 3 @@@ ROGUELIKE MODE

Name: Joshua

---[ CORE DESTROYED ]---

 Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9)             4500
Robots Destroyed (84)      420
Value Destroyed (2217)     2217
Prototype IDs (21)         420
Alien Tech Used (0)        0
Bonus (366)                366
              TOTAL SCORE: 7923

 Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity             0/1600
Matter                     300/300
Energy                     61/100
System Corruption          3%
Temperature                Cool (0)
Location                   -1/Command

 Parts
-------
Power (2)
  (None)
Propulsion (4)
  (None)
Utility (17)
  Experimental Signal Interpreter
  Advanced Terrain Scan Processor
  Advanced Melee Analysis Suite
  System Shield
Weapon (2)
  (None)
Inventory (4)
  Xenon Bombardment Thruster
  Xenon Bombardment Thruster
  Large Storage Unit
  Enhanced Force Lance

 Peak State
------------
Power
  Light Fission Core
  Micro Fission Core
Propulsion
  Impulse Thruster Array
  Impulse Thruster Array
Utility
  Improved Fusion Compressor
  Power Amplifier
  Large Storage Unit
  Triangulator
  Enhanced Optical Array
  Experimental Signal Interpreter
  Experimental Terrain Scanner
  Advanced Terrain Scan Processor
  Advanced Melee Analysis Suite
  Improved Core Analyzer
  Advanced ECM Suite
  Improved Maneuvering Thrusters
  Improved Utility Shielding
  Light Regenerative Plating
  Hacking Suite
  Advanced Hacking Suite
  System Shield
Weapon
  Power Sword
  Spear
Inventory
  Q-thruster
  Impulse Thruster Array
  Impulse Thruster Array
  Long-range Sensor Array
  Enhanced Quantum Rifle
  Mini Grenade Launcher
  Katana
  Enhanced Force Lance
[Rating: 139]

 Favorites
-----------
Power                      Light Nuclear Core
  Engine                   Ion Engine
  Power Core               Light Nuclear Core
  Reactor                  Light Antimatter Reactor
Propulsion                 Aluminum Leg
  Treads                   Improved Medium Treads
  Leg                      Aluminum Leg
  Flight Unit              Nuclear Pulse Thruster
Utility                    Medium Storage Unit
  Device                   Experimental Terrain Scanner
  Storage                  Medium Storage Unit
  Processor                Visual Processing Unit
  Hackware                 System Shield
  Protection               Hardened Medium Armor Plating
Weapon                     Katana
  Energy Gun               Heavy Particle Gun
  Energy Cannon            Advanced Beam Cannon
  Ballistic Gun            Heavy Assault Rifle
  Launcher                 Shock Bomb Launcher
  Impact Weapon            Great Maul
  Slashing Weapon          Katana
  Piercing Weapon          Spear

 Stats
-------
Bonus Breakdown            366
  High Alert Combat Kills  10
  Follower Combat Kills    56
  Met Data Miner           300
Classes Destroyed          11
  Worker                   5
  Hauler                   6
  Recycler                 5
  Watcher                  2
  Swarmer                  34
  Grunt                    19
  Brawler                  1
  Duelist                  1
  Sentry                   7
  Hunter                   3
  Programmer               1
Major NPCs Destroyed       0
Best Kill Streak           8
  Combat Bots Only         8
Best States                0
  Heat Dissipation         52
  Energy Capacity          250
  Matter Capacity          300
  Sight Range              22
  Robot Scan Range         20
  Terrain Scan Range       30
  Terrain Scan Density     210
  ECM Strength             3
  Power Amplification      20
  Armor Coverage (%)       25
  Utility Shielding        66
  Evasion (%)              72
  Melee Accuracy           24
  Launcher Accuracy        20
  Core Analysis            8
  Offensive Hacking        24
  Defensive Hacking        10
Matter Collected           1839
  Salvage Created          3369
Parts Attached             127
  Power                    9
  Propulsion               33
  Utility                  44
  Weapon                   41
Parts Lost                 55
  Power                    8
  Propulsion               18
  Utility                  18
  Weapon                   11
Average Slot Usage (%)     90
  Naked Turns              1
Spaces Moved               5871
  Fastest Speed (%)        322
  Average Speed (%)        216
  Slowest Speed (%)        55
  Overloaded Moves         0
  Propulsion Burnouts      0
  Targets Rammed           0
  Targets Kicked           0
  Targets Crushed          0
  Cave-ins Triggered       0
Heaviest Build             52
  Greatest Support         60
  Greatest Overweight (x)  5
  Average Overweight (x)   0
Largest Inventory          18
  Average Capacity         12
  Most Carried             18
  Average Carried          11
  Final Capacity           4
  Final Carried            4
Damage Taken               7309
  Core                     2428
  Absorbed by Shields      0
Average Core Remaining (%) 86
  Depth 11 Exit            100
  Depth 10 Exit            100
  Depth 9 Exit             41
  Depth 8 Exit             77
  Depth 7 Exit             89
  Depth 6 Exit             85
  Depth 5 Exit             86
  Depth 4 Exit             97
  Depth 3 Exit             93
  Depth 2 Exit             97
Volleys Fired              189
  Largest                  2
  Hottest                  96
Shots Fired                348
  Gun                      325
  Cannon                   0
  Launcher                 23
  Special                  0
  Kinetic                  188
  Thermal                  133
  Explosive                1
  Electromagnetic          26
  Secondary Targets        4
Shots Hit Robots           257
  Core Hits                125
  Critical Hits            1
  Critical Kills           1
  Critical Parts Destroyed 0
Overload Shots             0
  Energy Bleed             0
  Heat Surge               0
  Short Circuit            0
  Meltdown                 0
Melee Attacks              218
  Impact                   0
  Slashing                 181
  Piercing                 37
  Sneak Attacks            10
  Follow-up Attacks        4
Damage Inflicted           5836
  Projectiles              2643
  Explosions               1011
  Melee                    2182
  Ramming                  0
  Kinetic                  1265
  Thermal                  1603
  Explosive                0
  Electromagnetic          786
  Impact                   0
  Slashing                 1741
  Piercing                 441
Overflow Damage            85
  Projectiles              85
  Explosions               0
  Melee                    0
Self-Inflicted Damage      51
  Shots                    4
  Rammed                   0
Highest Temperature        244
  Average Temperature      47
  Received Heat Transfer   1092
Highest Corruption         5
  Average Corruption       1
  Corruption Purged        0
  Message Errors           5
  Matter Fused             4
  Energy Discharge         1
  Data loss (database)     3
  Misdirections            5
  Targeting Errors         2
  Depth 8 End              2
  Depth 7 End              1
  Depth 5 End              2
  Depth 4 End              5
  Depth 3 End              2
  Impact Corruptions       0
Haulers Intercepted        6
Robots Corrupted           2
  Parts Fried              2
  Impact Corruptions       0
Robots Melted              0
  Parts Melted             4
  Heat Transferred         3147
Parts Sabotaged            0
Parts Stolen               1
Parts Stripped             0
Parts Self-Destructed      8
  Prevented                11
Power Chain Reactions      5
Communications Jammed      0
Times Spotted              186
  Peak Tracking Total      17
  Tactical Retreats        29
Parts Field Recycled       0
  Retrieved Matter         0
Parts Merge Repaired       0
Drone Launches             0
  Drone Recoveries         0
Traps Triggered            11
  Indirectly               0
Trap Hack Attempts         0
  Triggered                0
  Disarmed                 0
  Reprogrammed             0
  Reused                   1
Traps Extracted            0
  Installed                0
  Triggered                2
Machines Disabled          1
Machines Sabotaged         0
Data Cores Recovered       0
  Used                     0
Machines Hacked            42
  Terminals                26
  Fabricators              5
  Repair Stations          0
  Recycling Units          0
  Scanalyzers              1
  Garrison Access          6
Total Hacks                148
  Successful               81
  Failed                   63
  Catastrophic             11
  Database Lockouts        0
  Manual                   79
  Unauthorized             65
  Terminals                86
  Fabricators              19
  Repair Stations          0
  Recycling Units          0
  Scanalyzers              1
  Garrison Access          12
Terminal Hacks             63
  Record                   13
  Part Schematic           9
  Robot Schematic          4
  Prototype ID Bank        3
  Branch Access Points     1
  Terminal Index           2
  Unreport Threat          1
  Locate Traps             1
  Dispatch Records         1
  Hauler Manifests         1
  Disengage Seal           1
Hacking Detections         33
  Full Trace Events        4
  Feedback Events          1
  Feedback Corruption      1
  Feedback Hackware Fried  0
  Feedback Blocked         0
Trojans Installed          32
  Terminals                25
  Fabricators              7
  Repair Stations          0
  Recycling Units          0
  Scanalyzers              0
  Garrison Access          0
Fabricators Overloaded     0
Fabricator Schematic DLs   0
Garrisons Disabled         3
Garrisons Compromised      0
Fab Network Shutdowns      0
Robot Schematics Acquired  4
  Robots Built             0
  Total Robot Build Rating 0
  Robot Fabrication Matter 0
  Robot Fabrication Time   0
Part Schematics Acquired   9
  Parts Built              3
  Total Part Build Rating  15
  Part Fabrication Matter  711
  Part Fabrication Time    380
Parts Repaired             0
  Part Repair Time         0
Parts Recycled             0
  Recycled Matter          0
  Retrieved Matter         0
  Retrieved Components     0
Parts Scanalyzed           0
  Part Schematics Acquired 0
  Parts Damaged            0
Robot Analysis Total       0
Robots Rewired             0
Robots Hacked              0
  Non-combat               0
  Combat                   0
Robot Hack Failures        0
Allies Hacked              0
Hacks Repelled             0
Total Allies               1
  Largest Group            1
  Highest-Rated Group      94
  Highest-Rated Ally       94
Total Orders               0
Terraforming Orders        0
  Walls Tunneled           0
Ally Attacks               18
  Total Damage             653
  Kills                    3
Allies Corrupted           0
Allies Melted              0
Peak Influence             417
  Average Influence        136
  Final Influence          219
Maximum Alert Level        2
  Low Security (%)         70
  Level 1                  28
  Level 2                  0
  Level 3                  0
  Level 4                  0
  Level 5                  0
Triggered High Security    0
  Turns                    0
Squads Dispatched          17
  Investigation            6
  Extermination            3
  Reinforcement            8
  Assault                  0
  Garrison                 0
  Intercept                0
Derelict Logs Recovered    2
Scrap Searched             5
Exploration Rate (%)       25
  Regions Visited          16
  Pre-discovered Areas     1
Garrisons Visited          0
  Relays Disabled          0
  Generators Disabled      0
Network Hubs Disabled      0
Actions Taken              6761
Turns Passed               5573
  Depth 11                 89
  Depth 10                 213
  Depth 9                  1105
  Depth 8                  372
  Depth 7                  1040
  Depth 6                  980
  Depth 5                  351
  Depth 4                  428
  Depth 3                  182
  Depth 2                  95
  Depth 1                  718
  Scrapyard                89
  Materials                1690
  Factory                  1377
  Research                 277
  Access                   434
  Lower Caves              728
  Proximity Caves          574
  Data Miner               120
  Command                  284

 Prototype IDs
---------------
Cooled Deuterium Engine
Experimental Flexi-carbon Leg
Improved Airjet
Improved Fusion Compressor
Experimental Sensor Array
Experimental Signal Interpreter
Experimental Terrain Scanner
Experimental Core Analyzer
Experimental Transmission Jammer
Experimental Utility Shielding
Light Regenerative Plating
Thermal Defense Suite
Combat Drone Bay
Heavy EM Shotgun
Improved Medium Laser
Heavy Particle Gun
Improved Spread Laser
Advanced Beam Cannon
Ion Burst Cannon
Precision Grenade Launcher
Plasma Sword

 Fabricated
------------
1x Exp. Sensor Array (-4/Factory)
1x Exp. Signal Interpreter (-4/Factory)
1x Lgt. Regenerative Plating (-4/Factory)

 Alien Tech Used
-----------------
None

 Route
-------
-11/Scrapyard
-10/Materials
-9/Materials (discovered 3 exits: [*Mat x3])
-8/Materials
-7/Factory
-7/Lower Caves
-7/Lower Caves (discovered 2 exits: *Fac / *Dat)
-7/Data Miner
-6/Proximity Caves
-6/Factory (discovered 2 exits: *Fac / *Low)
-5/Factory (discovered 2 exits: *Fac / *Upp)
-4/Factory (discovered 3 exits: *Res / [Upp] / [*Ext])
-3/Research
-2/Research (discovered 2 exits: *Acc / [Tes])
-1/Access
-1/Command (discovered 1 exit: [Sur])

 Challenges
------------
None

 Game
------
Seed: OmegaControlChip
  Manual?: 0
Play Time: 102 min
  Cumulative: 6349 min
Sessions: 3
Easy Mode: 0
Game No.: 92
  Easier: 0
  Easiest: 0
Win Type: -
  Total: 2
  Types: 1/0/0/1/0/0/0
Lore%: 59
Gallery%: 67

 Options
---------
ASCII: 0
Keyboard: 1
Movement: Vi
Fullscreen: 1
Font: 12/Smallcaps
Map View: 83x54
FOV Handling: Fade In
Steam: 0

U=405710321

Title: Re: When sneaking stops working
Post by: DDarkray on October 12, 2017, 05:39:55 PM

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Oh man, that place is definitely tough! I agree that it's pretty difficult to get out because, you know, it's one of the hardest branches out there. And yes, those stasis traps will always be there so you can expect to get murdered again if you're not well prepared. I think the exp. sensor array will be scrambled too, making pure stealth build even more difficult to escape.

The backdoor can also be opened by hacking the terminals.

Title: Re: When sneaking stops working
Post by: Kyzrati on October 12, 2017, 06:39:20 PM

Ooh, Joshua is finding his way into more dangerous places :)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Joshua on October 12, 2017, 05:36:11 AM

I do wonder whether the room full of stasis traps works more than once

Sure you can be prepared next time. It still poses problems for players because you'll aggro those defenders as you're trying to take out the traps, but anyway it's not meant to be a difficult area once you know what's there. (Those guards aren't there to defend against exiting bots, anyway--they're stationed to protect from outside intrusions ;)) Regarding that particular exit area, there are other even easier ways to safely access it. In the end, though, players don't go to Command to use that exit...

Quote from: Joshua on October 12, 2017, 05:36:11 AM

Spears are surprisingly effective even this late in the game - I used one to take out a squad of swarmers earlier in this level.

A lot of experienced players rely on melee for that area and others like it. I mean spears are good, but nothing compared to a bunch of the late-game melee weapons that hack bots to death in no time :D

Quote from: Joshua on October 12, 2017, 05:36:11 AM

Is the back door into this place meant to be something you have to cut into?

Sometimes one of the approaches will be blocked off, though there will always be some way to get in. The map generator only cares that there is at least one way to reach an access point, so in this case it doesn't know that area should normally have two and therefore won't redo the map even if one is blocked. Obviously even if "blocked," with sensors and whatnot you can still find the other approach and use it anyway :P

But yeah once you make it in there the "sneaking game" is mostly over! There are still ways to stealth/speed your way out, but the general reason to visit there is to... you know. And that means being prepared for serious fights.

Title: Re: When sneaking stops working
Post by: Joshua on October 16, 2017, 04:28:58 AM

Quote from: Kyzrati on October 12, 2017, 06:39:20 PM

But yeah once you make it in there the "sneaking game" is mostly over! There are still ways to stealth/speed your way out, but the general reason to visit there is to... you know. And that means being prepared for serious fights.

I do know (I think!) but I still haven't figured out the combat game. Considering GJ has spent 10 times as much time playing as I have (based on scoresheets) I might not ever have the time to figure it out, either - looking forward to the new and improved combat guides that other people are posting.

Title: Re: When sneaking stops working
Post by: Kyzrati on October 16, 2017, 04:38:23 AM

I imagine we'll see some post-end-game combat guides eventually. They'll be super spoilery, but yeah some players won't have to time to come up with these things on their own :P

Combat-wise, probably the easiest way to deal with

Spoiler: Command tip (click to show/hide)

that area of the game is to use the best melee weapons. That, together with other supporting strategies, is how even fliers/hover can cut down the toughest enemies. That said, there are a number of different obstacles to deal with at the end, and melee can't deal with all of them...

Title: Re: When sneaking stops working
Post by: Joshua on October 16, 2017, 04:28:47 PM

Quote from: Kyzrati on October 16, 2017, 04:38:23 AM

I imagine we'll see some post-end-game combat guides eventually. They'll be super spoilery, but yeah some players won't have to time to come up with these things on their own :P]

Haha, I can't even get past Factory with combat, post-end-game is way more than I was hoping for. :)

I suspect the better players have learned to recognize patterns in the map layout and patrol routes that I haven't, because about half the time I seem to stumble into armies of bots that just keep coming until poor Cogmind disintegrates into a pile of screws and bolts. I think I understand local positioning (doors and hallways) but not positioning in terms of strategic areas of an overall map (e.g. are they signs you can use to recognize that a garrison is near, and dispatching patrols, besides the enemies you're fighting calling for reinforcements?)

Title: Re: When sneaking stops working
Post by: zxc on October 17, 2017, 10:33:34 AM

You're right, Joshua. Strategic positioning is a big part of the game, but it's very hard to explain or talk about properly. It's almost like something you must learn through experience. However, garrisons are sneaky no matter how much you learn about the game.